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If not React, then what?

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Re: If not React, then what?

#81

Post by valenterry »

peterkelly wrote: post #55
valenterry wrote: post #8

> Frameworkism isn't delivering. Correct. The reason is not the frameworks but the languages. What is needed is a much more high-level and feature-powerful language. Just look at react. Passing down dependencies/values is a pain. So what did react do? It introduced contexts. Similar, other react addons try to solve this problem. But they all sacrifice type-safety in the process. They simply cannot solve this problem;…

The React team should have done their own language, rather than making it a framework/library. Then they could ensure the absence of side effects in rendering code, and had a better way of detecting updates. The knowledge about how to do this was already out there for many years before they started: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_reactive_programmin...

That's exactly my point.

Re: If not React, then what?

#82

Post by valenterry »

klysm wrote: post #13
valenterry wrote: post #8

> Frameworkism isn't delivering. Correct. The reason is not the frameworks but the languages. What is needed is a much more high-level and feature-powerful language. Just look at react. Passing down dependencies/values is a pain. So what did react do? It introduced contexts. Similar, other react addons try to solve this problem. But they all sacrifice type-safety in the process. They simply cannot solve this problem;…

This is straight up not true. React state management is very flexible and requires you to think about what your problem is and the nature of state. There is absolutely nothing preventing you from keeping those safety - I’m not sure what you mean by that. The typescript type system is very advanced, maybe even too advanced! I disagree that more sophisticated languages are required.

See what Peter Kelly wrote. For example.

Re: If not React, then what?

#83

Post by lilalomoslama »

In reality these few ms more do not hurt these companies. it is sad but true.

I think react native is always a better choice than tools like cordova while the best choice is native development. every time i use a cordova app it is painful and you just know something is off. react-native apps are a lot nearer to native experience. you can differ them if your really trying to though. but if your just want a good native ios and android app react-native is a good choice. and you can slowly learn native development from there and shift to native if you like.

Re: If not React, then what?

#84

Post by gerardnico »

Sankozi wrote: post #56
adzm wrote: post #3

React is not even a framework, really. It is a great starting point for simpler sites. Honestly still one of the best solutions out there.

How do you define a framework if React is not one? It is one of more clear examples of a framework: - calls your code - heavily affects how the code is written - requires significant build configuration (could even be argued it is something more than a framework, but definitely not a library)

A framework is declarative. You declare what you want. Generally in a configuration file and you get an app.

A library does not impose any configuration. I don’t see any required configuration with React. You can use it wherever you want in your code as an addition.

My piece on that: https://datacadamia.com/code/design/library_vs_framework

Re: If not React, then what?

#85

Post by crvst »

robertoandred wrote: post #34
xcrunner529 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you the developer. I think that’s his point. The performance if react sites is another thing and that’s what the user cares about. It also doesn’t work on mobile. React native was worshipped and now is thrown out.

React is absolutely performant. A developer who makes a slow React site would make a slow site with something else.

React is far from performant for SSR, and it simply can’t be, as it wasn’t designed with backend needs in mind. The fact that it works at all is more of a happy accident or side effect. Current approaches are more like workarounds than proper solutions for making it function effectively on servers.

Most importantly, it’s also not particularly performant on the client side in real-world scenarios.

For evidence, here’s a guy testing major websites using his awesome react-scan tool: https://x.com/aidenybai/status/1861442057598062653

Re: If not React, then what?

#86

Post by cyann »

quantadev wrote: post #61
goosejuice wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generalizing much? React is as popular as it is because of inertia. React holds an important space but its hardly the only tool that can succeed in a "large project with lots of screen updates and state changes". That's ridiculous.

The reason I said "(or Vue)" was specifically to say that there are other leading frameworks. I didn't say "or Angluar" because in my opinion it's a race between React and Vue at this point. But if you think there's a third contender, let me know. I'm always looking to learn. My main point was to compare "frameworks" v.s. "no frameworks", rather than to say that React is best, but if you want my opinion then yes I do…

Angluar -> I'm using this from now on

Re: If not React, then what?

#87

Post by hysan »

peterkelly wrote: post #50
quantadev wrote: post #20

The people who don't think React (or Vue) is important are the same ones who have never worked on a large project with lots of screen updates and state changes that absolutely cannot be avoided. React is still #1 in popularity, and the most crucial tool for almost any web developer (aside from using TypeScript, instead of plain JS which is also critical for large projects) React is reported to be used by 39.5% of dev…

WordPress relies on server-generated HTML and its admin interface is a fairly complex "app", especially once you factor in the plugin ecosystem. According to [1], it's used on 43.7% of all public websites. [1] https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cm-wordpress

It’s been a while since I worked with WordPress, but isn’t their Gutenberg editor (which is the heart of their CMS) built on React? So while React may not be used on the user facing side, it is still powering the content side of WordPress and in a way, powering all of those sites.

Re: If not React, then what?

#88

Post by thraxil »

gerardnico wrote: post #84
Sankozi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define a framework if React is not one? It is one of more clear examples of a framework: - calls your code - heavily affects how the code is written - requires significant build configuration (could even be argued it is something more than a framework, but definitely not a library)

A framework is declarative. You declare what you want. Generally in a configuration file and you get an app. A library does not impose any configuration. I don’t see any required configuration with React. You can use it wherever you want in your code as an addition. My piece on that: https://datacadamia.com/code/design/library_vs_framework

Genuinely curious if you could point to some examples of actual "frameworks" by your definition then. Because from your description, Rails, Django, Laravel, Phoenix, Vue.js, and basically every other "framework" I've encountered aren't actually frameworks.

Re: If not React, then what?

#89

Post by sshine »

dottjt wrote: post #35
QuiDortDine wrote: post #7

WOW this is a long article! Still waiting for the substance though... The only point I can agree with is that React is stupidly hard to learn. It feels like a tool made for aliens, though once you master it, it can be pretty efficient. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the JS-free web isn't coming back. And if you're using modern JS, you might as well use React (or a similar tool). The user won't be able to tel…

As someone who's been doing React since the beginning, I would agree that it's hard starting out. However, I think any new paradigm is difficult starting out. Recently I've been learning OO for work and I've been finding it stupidly hard and entirely unintuitive.

I’ve found Vue easier to learn because it bundles things and lets you learn visual components before fully exploring the reactive model. So while the modularity of React is preferable to a seasoned developer, it does no good to a newcomer.
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