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Australian Parliament bans social media for under-16s

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Re: Australian Parliament bans social media for under-16s

#231

As an Australian parent this is really pleasing to see. It's clearly inspired heavily by the work of Jon Haidt and Jean Twenge et al. The kids are not okay and the main thing stopping a worried parent from addressing it is that "all the other kids are on it". If you have an addicted/bullied child would you make them a social pariah and create interminable arguments by taking away their devices? Collective action is n…

> If you have an addicted/bullied child would you make them a social pariah and create interminable arguments by taking away their devices? Yes. That is literally your job as the parent. If there was some teenage trend of injecting heroin, nobody would accept "but my kid's social life might suffer" as a reason to not stop them from doing heroin. It similarly does not suffice as a reason to not stop your kids from usi…

It is definitely a parent's job to say "no" to degeneracy.

Saying "no" is easier when your child isn't offered a buffet of degeneracy by the outside world.

Re: Australian Parliament bans social media for under-16s

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you see the "without leaking identity" part? Your comment seems to ignore that.

Only for now. After requiring an ID to sign up is normalized governments will inevitably try to eliminate any anonymity to “protect children”/catch criminals/censorship/etc.

Case in point: COVID tracing was immediately ruined by the contact database being used by police for surveillance.

As a nation we have utterly terrible organizational firewalls for the public interest.

Re: Australian Parliament bans social media for under-16s

#233

While I appreciate the sentiment of this legislation, removing social media access for everyone under 16 years to address the concerns of a few is a nanny state act. As a parent, you should be making these decisions for your children - not your government. Additionally, I would suggest it won't address the actual issue. The named/identified social media companies will comply as required, younger internet users will s…

The idea is to make a group decision to stop all the kids from using social media rather then get your kid alienated by just blocking him. Some people on hackernews want their kids to have zero friends and play SNES games but that's not what we should aim for.

Re: Australian Parliament bans social media for under-16s

#234

I find it absolutely wild that we've managed to ban social media for under-16s, but somehow not pornography. And so kids can just stream hardcore, violent porn on tap, as long as they click "I am 18 or older". I am all for limiting social media (though not necessarily in this implementation), but just utterly puzzled why what seems to be an equally damaging influence for developing minds can't be limited.

Do we expect the social media ban implementation to be any different to the 18+ restriction on pornography? Personally I doubt it. Real enforcement will come from parents and schools now having authority to stop kids instead of currently being told “but all the other kids have it”.

There does seem to be an opportunity for a big tech companies like Apple and Google to introduce an over 18 verification that’s built into the browser but remains fully anonymous after initial verification.

Most over 18 verification schemes have faltered at the point where adults are asked to verify their identity to view among other things porn. If it was cryptographically proven anonymous there’d be much less resistance.

Re: Australian Parliament bans social media for under-16s

#235
post #2

The votes are strong majorities of both houses - great to see a functional democratic government act on such an important issue. They specifically don’t prescribe any particular age verification methods. This would be a great time to follow up with legislation that updates their national IDs to be able to provide cryptographically secure proofs of age without leaking identity. Absent that, I’m sure many of the commen…

lol - hardly! Submissions were announced on the 22nd, this closed on the 23rd, the Committee was so blindsided they literally requested submissions should 1-2 pages long, the bill was introduced to the House on the 26th and passed on the 29th.

That’s some really well reviewed legislation. Parliament sitting days close on the 31st.

Re: Australian Parliament bans social media for under-16s

#236

As an Australian parent this is really pleasing to see. It's clearly inspired heavily by the work of Jon Haidt and Jean Twenge et al. The kids are not okay and the main thing stopping a worried parent from addressing it is that "all the other kids are on it". If you have an addicted/bullied child would you make them a social pariah and create interminable arguments by taking away their devices? Collective action is n…

It's very hard not to see the whole marketing of the legislation as an exercise in misdirection.

The media campaign was led by Rupert Murdoch's News Ltd (who see a commercial opportunity in cutting a demographic from their competitors audience for advertisers), and the government's marketing of it entirely focused on children being restricted, avoiding until the last weeks an admission it actually meant all adults would have to undertake verification processes to use social media.

The gulf between the practical effect of the legislation (all adults are impacted) and the claimed intent (only children under 16 are the focus), is so large the claims shouldn't really be accepted at face value.

Combine that with the abuse of democratic process: what would usually be weeks of public feedback was shortened to 24 hours, and after passing the lower house the government attempted to force the legislation through in the senate with no debate, finally conceding to a brief 1 hour debate before passing it in the final hours of the last sitting day of the year.

When opposition arose earlier in the week to the idea this is about a backdoor mechanism to force the government's recently rebranded myId (from myGovId), the government hastily made changes to the bill and loudly said social media companies would not be allowed to ask for government id, in physical or digital form.

But that itself was misdirection. A clause was added saying this does not apply if an alternative option is also provided.

But age assurance based on biometrics from webcams has poor accuracy, as one senator argued in the final debate. Fresh-faced youths will have no option but to go for the myID solution on their 16th birthday - which as that same senator pointed out is the age at which you can apply for a myID account.

On the topic of digital id and myID: it was also apparent that the Government seemingly feigned ignorance that this system, designed specifically for this purpose, would be the ideal and primary solution.

Yet we know just how much focus and energy has been going into designing these systems and working out how to get the public to accept them: witness this piece from 2018 [1].

It's of course fine to argue pros and cons of digital id, both philosophically, and in terms of specific implementation details, but that's not what happened here.

Everything clearly indicates the legislation was designed to sidestep any substantial debates on this topic.

What was also sidestepped was any reasonable discussion of specific implementation options. Instead we have vague details of an age assurance trial being run for many more months, with no specifics that help us understand how this legislation may work, or fail to work.

[1] https://www.aspi.org.au/report/preventing-another-australia-...

Re: Australian Parliament bans social media for under-16s

#237
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? You can see the actual harm caused by web sites. Doomscrolling in all age groups. Going to bed very late at night. Girls having body dysmorphia cause of instagram. Young men having porn addition and having no ambition to interact with real women

> young men having porn addition and having no ambition to interact with real women this made me lol so much. porn addition is not the cause, but the consequence. do you have any idea how hard it is for males to find a willing mate nowadays? most females have men fighting over them, while most men must always do the fighting to get even one low-quality female in their entire life.

I wish you could see your comment as most people see it.

When you refer to "males" and "females", and especially use terms like "low-quality female" you sound absolutely unhinged.

Re: Australian Parliament bans social media for under-16s

#238

Just so it's clear - this new law will require everyone over 16 to provide proof-of-age, and thus identity, to use the most popular portions of the internet. Saving the children is the voter-acceptable way of getting it past public scrutiny, and paves the way for a national DigitalID that will be required by all citizens.

Can you elaborate what you mean? We already need identity for ISP access and mobile phones, no?

[deleted]

Re: Australian Parliament bans social media for under-16s

#239
post #185

This legislation is a bold step, but it raises a lot of questions about implementation and unintended consequences. While protecting children from online harms is undoubtedly important, enforcing an age limit like this on social media platforms could be incredibly challenging

It already works for gambling. It will reduce the access to adults, of course, but I can't say it'd see it as a negative

Those who will trade privacy for safety deserve neither.

Re: Australian Parliament bans social media for under-16s

#240

As an Australian parent this is really pleasing to see. It's clearly inspired heavily by the work of Jon Haidt and Jean Twenge et al. The kids are not okay and the main thing stopping a worried parent from addressing it is that "all the other kids are on it". If you have an addicted/bullied child would you make them a social pariah and create interminable arguments by taking away their devices? Collective action is n…

> If you have an addicted/bullied child would you make them a social pariah and create interminable arguments by taking away their devices? Yes. That is literally your job as the parent. If there was some teenage trend of injecting heroin, nobody would accept "but my kid's social life might suffer" as a reason to not stop them from doing heroin. It similarly does not suffice as a reason to not stop your kids from usi…

> > by taking away their devices

> That is literally your job as the parent.

Tell me you're not a parent without telling me you're not a parent!

This only works if there is broad support from the entire social group, meaning school and all (or most) of the other parents. If you try this all alone, all you can accomplish is to apply more suffering to your poor child.

For us, here in silicon valley, fortunately that broad support existed in elementary school. Not a single kid had a phone, so it was the norm.

In middle school the support is still broad, although less absolute. A few kids have phones, but they are outliers, so it's still normal not to have one.

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