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In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse

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Re: In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse

#301

Post by Aeolun »

grayhatter wrote: post #276
Aeolun wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when a scene is described, what happens in your head? You take it all in as a sort of dry list of facts? If someone gets punched in the face that conjures an image of a fist connecting with a face for me.

> You take it all in as a sort of dry list of facts? "dry list" was your description, not mine. But also, no. Take the common example; For sale: baby shoes, never worn. You don't have to imagine a picture of shoes, nor of a for sale sign to go... "oh, shit...". Or even even that's too far to grasp... consider the melody of happy song, or a sad song. I assume you don't imagine a piano to figure out which it is?

Yes, I was trying to figure out how that would work, describing how I imagined it as a starting point. Not saying that’s how you experience it (hence the question mark)

I don’t have to imagibe baby shoes to understand what they are, or what happened, but if I read ‘baby shoes’ there’s definitely an image of small shoes appearing in my mind (constantly morphing, because the description doesn’t give me anything to go off).

If I read ‘sad song’, some variation of a sad song will play in my mind.

Of course often you read many of those things in sequence, and the mental scene constructs itself as you learn more.

If you read quickly it’s a bit vague, not enough time to truly think about it, but it’s there. At least for me.

Re: In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse

#302

Post by Nevermark »

cess11 wrote: post #297
FredPret wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know you’ve gone off the deep end when you call Musk an “entrepreneur” in quotes instead of what he is - a regular, if excellent, entrepreneur. Having a leg up due to coming from a well-off background invalidates nothing. These top entrepreneurs and politicians typically grew up upper-middle class or as members of the minor rich; they rise to positions of prominence from there. That’s fundamentally different from…

No, he's not, he's a douche born into criminal wealth that organisations he ends up in needs to protect themselves from. Today he's also a fascist grifter who's entered into politics. For some reason usians don't revolt when their political system elects rapists, genocidaires and people on the far right, so I'm hoping it'll turn into something like a kingdom that they find it in themselves to overturn.

Hard to believe now, but for quite a long time he focused on visionary technology, was an exceptional business man, an inspiring builder and leader of his organizations.He also demonstrated other unusual skills in ways people forget, never noticed, or sneer at ignorantly. Successfully navigating the national red tape for both Tesla and SpaceX, in industries with extremely entrenched regulatory captivating incumbents, demonstrated just one of many non-obvious skills.

Today?

He incessantly spews anti-inspirational anti-rational anti-social and anti-business diarrhea to an alarming and epic degree. He drives Twitter/X’s business logic like a drunk going the wrong way on a highway, seemingly intent on hitting every guardrail he can find.

So far SpaceX and perhaps to a lesser degree Tesla are getting by on the deep talent he gathered in better times.

He is an unusual person.

Re: In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse

#303

Post by oytis »

tayo42 wrote: post #217
oytis wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also see that in real world too. Too many times I wished a book existed to learn this or that and got an answer that you really need to hang out in multiple Discord groups to stay up-to-date. Newer generation apparently has less difficulty with that. Also I found videos to be of enormous value to learn visual tools like CAD. Just watching someone do the job and explaining how they do it lets you fill the gaps that…

Maybe they just think they do because they don't know any better? Or constant stream of information gives them the illusion of staying informed

I don't think it's an illusion. There are enough talented young engineers

Re: In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse

#304

Post by cess11 »

Nevermark wrote: post #302
cess11 wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he's not, he's a douche born into criminal wealth that organisations he ends up in needs to protect themselves from. Today he's also a fascist grifter who's entered into politics. For some reason usians don't revolt when their political system elects rapists, genocidaires and people on the far right, so I'm hoping it'll turn into something like a kingdom that they find it in themselves to overturn.

Hard to believe now, but for quite a long time he focused on visionary technology, was an exceptional business man, an inspiring builder and leader of his organizations.He also demonstrated other unusual skills in ways people forget, never noticed, or sneer at ignorantly. Successfully navigating the national red tape for both Tesla and SpaceX, in industries with extremely entrenched regulatory captivating incumbents,…

No, most of the reporting from "his organizations" is about how they defend themselves against him and blow the whistle about security concerns, plus the union busting and wage theft and so on. Plus the story about how Thiel kicked him out to save PayPal.

Both Tesla and SpaceX are military labs behind plausible deniability, dual-use aprons. Hence they're run to a larger extent by people who aren't him and he works like a neat distraction for outsiders.

Much like Thiel he doesn't show any "deep talent". That's something other people are bringing to the organisations they're part of.

Re: In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse

#305

Post by cess11 »

FredPret wrote: post #300
cess11 wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he's not, he's a douche born into criminal wealth that organisations he ends up in needs to protect themselves from. Today he's also a fascist grifter who's entered into politics. For some reason usians don't revolt when their political system elects rapists, genocidaires and people on the far right, so I'm hoping it'll turn into something like a kingdom that they find it in themselves to overturn.

> Douche No accounting for taste > born into ... wealth It's a very minor thing in the big picture to be born into a 3rd world country like South Africa's top 1%. > criminal wealth His dad likely had some dodgy dealings, but there's every indication that he made the bulk of his money legally. Anyway, how does that reflect on Musk? Did we go back to "sins of the fathers"? > organisations he ends up in needs to protect…

Apartheid was a crime. SA occupying and running mining operations in other countries was criminal. Profiting from it means you're accumulating criminal wealth.

Mistaking first-mover advantage and access to extreme amounts of funding for "kick ass" is quite weird.

No, that's not a characteristic of fascism. He's impressed by and promotes nazis, maintains his wealth through corporativism, and so on.

No, it's that he makes wild promises, takes money and then don't deliver on them that makes him a grifter.

Re: In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse

#306

Post by mandmandam »

llm_trw wrote: post #289
mandmandam wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suppose I'm defending the FT in the sense that there is no alterior motive, I believe No ulterior motive? I really don't know about that. They're better than most, because they generally tell the truth - a shockingly low bar - but it's a specific type of truth, as seen from a specific and very narrow window, from a deliberate vantage point. Always viewing the world from that specific window belies a motive, consc…

I'm having a hard time understanding what your complaint is. That the worlds premier capitalist publication publishes facts capitalists find useful? Yes. Also bears shit in the woods.

> I'm having a hard time understanding what your complaint is.

That the word reliable was being used to describe the FT.

'Reliable' within a certain narrow context for the people trashing our potential (ie, the capital class)? Yes.

'Reliable' within a broader context, where we get to the root causes of our catastrophic inequality, our over extraction of resources, our environmental destruction, our war mongering leaders, etc? Also yes; but in precisely the wrong way. They can be relied on to support whatever makes the yacht class more money in the next few quarters.

This matters because corporate media has been truly complicit in much of our impending doom/s; the FT being far from an exception.

Handy tip: If someone's point seems very obvious, like where bears shit, it's usually worth reading the comment again to see if you've missed something. Ie in this case, the entire second half of my comment.

Re: In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse

#307

Post by mandmandam »

llm_trw wrote: post #291
mandmandam wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So anyone who uses the phrase "genuine understanding" is secretly a wannabe power-hungry authoritarian? Dunno about that one bud. And anyone who calls out vapid conspicuous consumption, or the greedy exploitation of the planet for personal gain, that's not obviously perverse to you; it's just one person's opinion and easily disregarded - because they're not the final word on genuine understanding? Well, pick your pro…

>And anyone who calls out vapid conspicuous consumption, or the greedy exploitation of the planet for personal gain, that's not obviously perverse to you; it's just one person's opinion and easily disregarded - because they're not the final word on genuine understanding? Pretty much, yes. Yesterdays vapid conspicuous consumption is tomorrows minimum living standard. Three meals a day every day forever? Even medieval…

> Yesterdays vapid conspicuous consumption is tomorrows minimum living standard.

The way of life of our billionaires is threatening all life on the planet, particularly the poorest [0]. There might not be a living standard if we don't fix this issue.

0 - https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/billionaires-emit-mo...

Re: In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse

#308

Post by sourcepluck »

tomjen3 wrote: post #298
sourcepluck wrote: post #246

Someone mentions Postman below so I'm tempted to add: can the tech crowd try a bit of Neil Postman, Jean Baudrillard, Guy Debord and the Situationists, Mark Fisher, Marhsall McLuhan, presumably loads of others I don't know about who have done work in these areas, and then maybe Michel Desmurget on the more science-based side of it if they want to avoid any airy-fairy theory. It's arguably especially wild that Desmurg…

Any of them ran their own startups? Ported some code to jemalloc? Then I am not interested in their idea on tech.

Wow, there you go. This is quite the straightforwardly authoritarian statement, if followed through on (though I doubt you actually follow it through).

If some politicians and engineers wanted to lay train tracks down straight through the middle of a town, would the locals have a say in the matter, in your opinion? Or should they leave those decisions to the experts?

I do imagine you're not really serious though. To illustrate that - let's imagine for the sake of argument that Julian Assange (or Richard Stallman, or Kent Pitman, or whoever whose political opinions you might dislike) would code rings around you.

Would you suddenly take their opinion seriously? You wouldn't, if you didn't like them or their opinions. You'd come up with some other ad hoc reason why they could (and must!) be totally ignored. I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong here.

So why maintain the pretense that you're rejecting these people because they're not a part of the coding tribe, of which you're such a proud member and staunch representative?

Re: In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse

#309

Post by plewd »

collingreen wrote: post #294
magnio wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Bitch,” he repeated. The mallet came down. She shoved herself upward and it landed just below her kneecap. Her lower leg was suddenly on fire. Blood began to trickle down her calf. And then the mallet was coming down again. She jerked her head away from it and it smashed into the stair riser in the hollow between her neck and shoulder, scraping away the flesh from her ear. Does your mind conjure no images while re…

Aphantasia is hard to explain, especially in a drive by comment. I'm not the person you're replying to but the answer, for me, depends on what you really mean by conjuring images. Very technically no, I see no images for this but I don't know if that is truly the whole point of what you're asking. I mostly understand what is happening but I also really struggle to get the angles right in my mind of someone swinging a…

Aphantasia is really annoying to explain to people, like trying to explain blindness to a person who's always seen. I can't "see" anything, but I'm able to reason about it and kinda trace what I imagine with my eyes.

Interestingly enough, I have very lucid dreams and have realized that I am able to visualize (with color!) inside of them. I can't imagine being able to do that at will while awake, must be amazing.

Re: In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse

#310

Post by Nevermark »

cess11 wrote: post #304
Nevermark wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to believe now, but for quite a long time he focused on visionary technology, was an exceptional business man, an inspiring builder and leader of his organizations.He also demonstrated other unusual skills in ways people forget, never noticed, or sneer at ignorantly. Successfully navigating the national red tape for both Tesla and SpaceX, in industries with extremely entrenched regulatory captivating incumbents,…

No, most of the reporting from "his organizations" is about how they defend themselves against him and blow the whistle about security concerns, plus the union busting and wage theft and so on. Plus the story about how Thiel kicked him out to save PayPal. Both Tesla and SpaceX are military labs behind plausible deniability, dual-use aprons. Hence they're run to a larger extent by people who aren't him and he works li…

This is hogwash.

Dramatic exits after successful acquisitions are common. You have to earn “failures” like that.

That created SpaceX’s seed capital.

(You can’t have it both ways. If he had convinced the US to bankroll him, that would have been serious business acumen.)

Minor success on hard problems, with a shoe string budget, and an attractive business plan (vertical integration, fast-failure iteration, reusability) got investment capital flowing.

More successes, more capital.

Result: They changed the economics of space launches & save money for all their customers, including NASA & the military.

No resemblance to nepo operations or results. See Boeing, Lockheed, etc.

$ billions of dollars burn with each SLS launch. Massive delays & cost plus overruns. For now.

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