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Hetzner cuts traffic on US VPSs, raises prices

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Re: Hetzner cuts traffic on US VPSs, raises prices

#531
post #118
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never. I don't think AWS have _ever_ icnreased prices.

I believe they have for very specific services, but never for things like EC2 or RDS. There are also some EC2 instance classes where upgrading instance types in the same "size" are more expensive, but that is very rare, but I dont believe AWS has ever pulled the rug out from under you.

Increasing prices is not "pulling the rug out from under you". Hertzer decided to raise their prices. Their customers can either continue using their service, reduce their use of the service, or go somewhere else.

Also, we live in a time of high inflation. We should expect price increases because they value of the dollar, euro, etc. is going down.

Re: Hetzner cuts traffic on US VPSs, raises prices

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is there a duopoly in the cloud market in the US?

[flagged]

AWS, Azure, and Google have data centers in Europe. I am sure lots of other companies (like Cloud Flare) have servers in Europe too. Most large providers are global companies which operate in as many countries as possible.

Re: Hetzner cuts traffic on US VPSs, raises prices

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internet is much cheaper in Europe than in most other regions and there's more of it. Europe is effectively the center of the Internet. Most of the time (in regions like Asia-Pacific and Africa) this is simply due to having more time and money to build it, but when comparing Europe to the USA, it's probably because of regulatory structure - more competition, less monopolization.

What do you mean? Is peering/transit actually more expensive in the US? Residential internet isn't really relevant here, and if it was, it would still not really make sense considering that Germany (where they have their main datacenter) has much worse internet than the US according to most speed/bandwidth averages. Because if you are not referring to residential ISP, I don't think there's any peering/transit provide…

Yes. I suspect that because of the low number of residential ISPs there's less internet infrastructure in general and less competition. Who needs peering if there's only Comcast? You point out that networks can exist that don't serve residential customers, but who do they serve - mostly other networks which don't exist because they can't serve residential customers. The entire US is just the access region for a few networks to backhaul to NYC, Chicago and SF, not a full fledged network itself.

Re: Hetzner cuts traffic on US VPSs, raises prices

#535
post #283

What are some examples of applications people are running that: 1. Require 20TB of bandwidth / month 2. That bandwidth can't be shielded by Cloudflare and others? Is it like... real time video streaming? Gaming servers? I can't imagine a web app getting anywhere close to that. I run a mid sized NFT art creation website that generates both images and GIF's ( https://mintables.club ) and with over 100000 users at peak,…

More people setup VPN servers these days. Spiked with the Iran protests. Wireguard makes it eas-ier. Circumventing some rules like content distribution.

Re: Hetzner cuts traffic on US VPSs, raises prices

#536
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OVH and reliable, in the same sentence? They're cheap, so suitable for projects you don't mind going poof. Personal anecdote. A few years ago, I lost a lot of sleep on a domain renewal at OVH. Their incompetence was mind-boggling. A less common tld was the only slightly challenging bit. After a week of calling and emailing, and on the verge of the domain lapsing, I gave up and sent someone to the tld registry with ca…

They can be terrible. But it is dirt cheap. So if you use their stuff in a way that you can recover somewhere else if they have issues, you save a lot. As you mentioned I would stay away from them for things like domain hosting. Just use them for cheap compute, etc.

Would you recommend vultr for dedicated metal? I’m lazily shopping around for a decent dedicated metal setup, but I need something reasonably reliable.

Re: Hetzner cuts traffic on US VPSs, raises prices

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this might be a cultural thing. HN, SV, and the market for IaaS/SaaS products is a bit of an American monoculture, where "the customer is always right" and there's a strong desire to make the customer happy. I think this is mostly a good thing and especially a good way to build early stage companies, but in my experience it's less present elsewhere. In some places companies are happy doing their own thing, do…

It's not a cultural thing to accuse customers of committing fraud their first interaction. Not being an absolute insane jerk off is a good expectation of people.

> Not being an absolute insane jerk off is a good expectation of people.

have you met the internet yet

Re: Hetzner cuts traffic on US VPSs, raises prices

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no complaints at all about this model. They work out the cost of providing a service, then they charge that cost plus a markup. They keep doing things that make them money. They stop doing things that don't make them money. It seems like a straightforward way to run a business.

I have one big complaint and one little one. The big complaint is that they didn't even give one business day's notice, and the little complaint is that they raised prices at the same time they cut what they were offering by 20x, instead of doing one at a time.

They're giving two business days' notice for new product and three months for existing product?

Re: Hetzner cuts traffic on US VPSs, raises prices

#539
post #135

Possible theory why they did it: To my understanding, you don't pay for traffic, you pay for network capacity. Maybe US instances aren't getting the uptake they had hoped for, and they are looking lower some costs by reducing their network capacity (they are a very German company and care a lot about efficiency). Hetzner is very cheap and still profitable because classic "economy of scale" and vertical integration. T…

That doesn't explain a 20x regional pricing difference for the same service (outgoing bandwidth). It's either a malicious change to extract exorbitant rent from customers (hostages at that point) or buying enough bandwidth is whole lot more expensive than they calculated and it reflects costs to provide the product (a virtual machine a specific traffic cap). If its mostly the later case they really fucked up their cu…

If it were malicious, they would have increased prices in Europe as well. They could try and extract money from European customers just as much as American ones.

And the bandwidth pricing is still quite cheap, $0.001/GB. Major cloud providers usually charge nearly 100x that (AWS 90x, GCP at 85x or 120x depending on whether you want standard or premium, Azure at 80x or 87x depending on standard or premium).

You used to get 20TB for free and now you get 1-8TB free. If you had to pay for 19TB, that's another $19. If you had to pay for 19TB from a major cloud provider, that'd be $1,556-2,335. Even if you had DigitalOcean, they'd be charging you $0.01/GB (10x) and you'd be hit with a $190 bill.

I think the issue is that in the US, they don't have their own network. They peer with a single company in Virginia for 200Gbps and then pay for transit on 1Tbps. That's a lot of transit to be paying for - and 5x more transit than peering. In Europe, it looks like they have their own network between Finland, Germany, France, Amsterdam, UK, Austria, and Czech Republic. They also have a much better ratio of peering to transit. So they can use their network to carry the traffic to a lot of Europe and then maybe they have peering arrangements to handle most of their traffic when they need to hand it off.

In Europe, they're more likely to face owner economics while in the US, they're effectively renters - and the more their customers use, the more it's going to cost them.

If this were really a cash grab, it's a pretty terrible cash grab. It will certainly impact some users, but the maximum it will impact any user is $19/mo (if they're on a server with only 1TB of included traffic). But most people don't use many TB of traffic. Consuming all Bluesky posts in zstd compressed JSON is 30GB/mo. These weren't servers that had unlimited traffic on a 1Gbps port. They had a 20TB limit. If you were hitting that and intend to continue hitting that, it's another $12-19/mo.

If I had to guess, I'd say that they probably thought they'd expand more in the US and build out a fiber network here (as OVH has done), but that didn't happen and now they're looking at continuing to pay transit for the foreseeable future. Though I feel like the optics of this are pretty bad given that most people probably use less than 1TB and those users will still feel like something is being taken from them (even if they were never using that much anyway).

Re: Hetzner cuts traffic on US VPSs, raises prices

#540
post #322

As a Hetzner bandwidth enjoyer affected by this, this is why ( HN cough ) multi-cloud/dedi k3s is great, because if you get rug pulled you just migrate to another provider with better prices. That said, $1/TB for bandwidth overage seems pretty fair. I empathize with the complaining but if the new price is such a ripoff everyone should be recommending what cloud VM provider they're migrating to for a better deal.

> this is why (HN cough) multi-cloud/dedi k3s

As long as you don't factor in the cost of the effort to make that work as seamless as it sounds.

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