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Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

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Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#181
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there must have been a long pre-history of writing proper, like, leaving marks on trees or soil as a guide, a warning, etc. But it takes a civilization to start writing on a scale comparable to that of the Sumerians, and such a civilization cannot be lost to time so completely as to leave behind some evidence if its writing - especially given that they would likely use different media, including clay and stone.

Leaving marks on trees and such is not writing. It is not the transcription of spoken language. We have examples of this kind of symbol-placement on ancient cave art stretching far back into the ice age. It is not considered writing.

Well, hieroglyphs are not exactly a “transcription”, either…

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#182

The Chinese assert that they in fact started the first civilization, before the civilizations of the Tigris/Euphrates, Nile, or Indus. I never had the time to really dig into it to evaluate the arguments, but I don't think it's correct because the Shang Dynasty is usually placed around 1600 BC while Sumer is dated around 3000 BC (or even earlier). So I don't know how the Chinese claim they were first. But I can tell…

most chinese people have no interest in those who started the first civilization. in fact most of them there have to work about 12~14 hours a day and have no ability to spend any time to 'think' and 'assert'. only a few people there that have higher position and get well educated that know a little about the very old times... and most of them believe Egipt or middle east started the first civilization because that's…

You probably tried to write something out of compassion for those tired Chinese workers, but what you actually wrote appear as insensitively dismissive (an average poor guy at an assembly line absolute have abilities to think). And more importantly I don't think it's correct. Most people, even those who do have plenty of spare time, don't dig archeology, or fact-based history that much. History as a part of identity is a different story, and many are very emotionally invested in it, and from my experience in Far East cultures especially so. So 'most Chinese people' may not look interested, but only before somebody tells them they are not that ancient.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving marks on trees and such is not writing. It is not the transcription of spoken language. We have examples of this kind of symbol-placement on ancient cave art stretching far back into the ice age. It is not considered writing.

Well, hieroglyphs are not exactly a “transcription”, either…

They are in the same way that Chinese is.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tenochtitlan didn't have walls because it already had natural defenses (water); so that's a particular case.

I'm not sure Tenochtitlan was technically a city. The defining characteristic of a city is that it can't feed itself. (Hence the "urban" vs "rural" dichotomy.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tenochtitlan was a closed system and used to have farms on the lake and the islands.

I’m not sure that’s a good definition of a city, and not one I’ve seen elsewhere. I’ve read quite a lot about urban planning and Tenochtitlan would fit right in with English garden cities of the early 20th century. It also had a larger population than almost any city in Europe at the time, and certainly the Spanish called it a city.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people from fifty thousand years ago do not differ in any essential way from the people of today, except in the knowledge and in the set of skills that they were taught. Most human societies that have not seen a writing system at other people have never invented any writing system. All those that are likely to have invented writing independently (though for some of them it is not certain that they have not seen t…

I get what you're saying, but I also think it's hard to overstate how different ancient cultures and experiences made people.

That’s a cultural difference though. It’s like when people believe that you’re going to be declared a witch and burned at the stake if you time travelled to the past and talked about iPhones. Just like in any culture today, they’d just assume you’re nuts, laugh and move on.

However, people generally underestimate how culture differs. The idea of belonging to a certain group was vital in the Middle Ages. And that’s something modern people would probably not put much thought in if time travel was possible.

Single digit thousands of years is a drop in the bucket for evolution. The people back then were largely the same as they are now. They just lived in different cultures. Modern innovations are all motivated by a need. Some form of pressure to come up with a solution. Pre civilization societies just don’t have a need. It’s accounting and management of a large population that requires some form of book keeping and written records. There is no reason to believe, without need and cultural precedence, that writing would have been invented by societies in earlier stages.

In the same way classical physics isn’t wrong about the world compared to modern physics, calling this the first writing system is just in the context of our current understanding of the world of the past. We can be pedantic about the details but going by our current understanding, this is what makes sense. This understanding might change but it’s is needlessly pedantic, especially in a field like this that is less „cold hard truth“-ish compared to physics.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#186
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside philosophy class, do you not distinguish between those things you have personally experienced, characterising them as things that are known (to you), and between those things that you've seen on a screen or heard, characterising them as (mere) possibilities to you, yet to be experienced/verified?

No, outside of philosophy class, I do consider it a known fact, that the earth is round, just like I consider my birth to be a known fact, even though I have not personally witnessed both.

So, you say you can know things that others have verified, but not you personally. This is belief, surely?

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They believed their writing was gifted to them by the Gods. This is an essentially universal belief in the past, and not just about writing. People are able to notice that their lifestyle depends on technologies, and that the only way to learn those technologies is for someone else to teach you. So they decide that the technologies on which their lives depend - pressing olives, farming grain, writing, harvesting wo…

If you’ve ever seen a sheep you would know it’s impossible to pluck one. It’s akin to pulling out clumps of your hair.

Do you think that's a response to what I said?

From Weavers, Scribes, and Kings:

> "Shearing" is actually a misnomer. The Akkadian term was "plucking." Before the end of the Bronze Age, domestic sheep did not continuously grow wool, and the wool could be combed or plucked when their coats shed in the spring.

Why would you think modern sheep make a relevant comparison point after I explicitly point out that they don't?

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, as if you have to ask. You’re already defensive about it, defending your chosen side with whataboutisms . I’ll say it again: full of shit .

In the interest of this being a place for discussions: I have frequently heard the slogan that the republican efforts to cut federal programs is a major cause of why these programs failure. As I mentioned above, I am sure that such policy is not helping these programs, but as a bigger point, there is just not a good correlation between such policies and the actual effectiveness of various government programs. The mil…

One will never see evidence when one is unwilling to see it. There is no discussion to be had when one side has no issue arguing in bad-faith.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are in the same way that Chinese is.

Yes - not exactly a transcription.

Written chinese is a direct transcription of the spoken language. It is not (entirely) phonetic, but it is still a 1:1 transcription.
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