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Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

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Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#411

Post by FridayoLeary »

aendruk wrote: post #218
connicpu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An indicator light hardwired is nice but I apparently can't trust hardware manufacturers to design it properly. My work laptop (HP Dragonfly) has a physical blocker that closes over the camera when I haven't explicitly pressed the button that enables the camera. The blocker is black and white stripes so it's very obvious when it's covering the sensor. This should absolutely be the security standard we all strive for…

> The blocker is black and white stripes On my ThinkPad it’s instead painted with a red dot. Because, obviously, the conventional meaning of a red dot appearing on a camera is “not recording”.

To be fair a red dot is a design feature of lenovo. So at least it fits in nicely with the overall look of the laptop.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#412

Post by ale42 »

MrDrMcCoy wrote: post #346
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Logic on an already existing ASIC is going to be cheaper than a capacitor.

This is counter-intuitive enough to warrant further explanation.

If you are designing an ASIC for the camera, you can include all the required logic gates to control the LED for a cost that is close to zero. It wouldn't impact the production cost of the ASIC, whereas a capacitor is an additional item in the BOM (and to be charged it requires current, more than the LED, so the driver in the IC must be bigger).

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#413

Post by JCharante »

ohhnoodont wrote: post #244
epistasis wrote: post #17

I can see why some people might be concerned about the camera, but I'm far more concerned by the microphone. There's far more sensitive and actionable information that can be gathered from me that way! I'm glad that macOS started putting a light in the menubar when the microphone is in use, but I'd prefer to have unhackable hardware for that instead.

Yup it's wild to me how much anxiety there is about cameras while no mind is given to microphones. Conversations are much more privileged than potentially seeing me in my underwear. That said the most sensitive information is what we already willingly transmit: search queries, interactions, etc. We feed these systems with so much data that they arguably learn things about us that we're not even consciously aware of.…

> Yup it's wild to me how much anxiety there is about cameras while no mind is given to microphones. Conversations are much more privileged than potentially seeing me in my underwear.

It depends on the person, I don't think you could gain much from me? I don't say credit card numbers out loud, I don't talk about hypothetical crimes out loud. I don't say my wallet seed phrases out loud. I also don't type in my passwords. Yes you could probably find out what restaurant I'm ordering delivery for, but other than that I suppose my conversations are really boring.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#414

Post by Sporktacular »

ashoeafoot wrote: post #398
ddalex wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one that is not worried at all about the camera and super concerned about microphones ? The camera may see me staring into the screen, woo hoo. The microphones will hear everything I discuss, incl. confidential information. There is no physical microphone cover there, is it ?

Your speakers are a microphone ..

Yeah, but they aren't an input device with an amp wired in the right direction and an A/D converter to read it out.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#415

Post by benj111 »

ashoeafoot wrote: post #398
ddalex wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one that is not worried at all about the camera and super concerned about microphones ? The camera may see me staring into the screen, woo hoo. The microphones will hear everything I discuss, incl. confidential information. There is no physical microphone cover there, is it ?

Your speakers are a microphone ..

I seem to recall reading somewhere that 'everything' is a thermometer, on the basis that many things behave differently at different temperatures.

You can also use an LED as a light sensor.

and I also came across a YT vid of a console that used a piezo electric speaker for motion sensing.

I wonder if you could use a track pad to pick up sound.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#417

Post by cnity »

IshKebab wrote: post #374
mrb wrote: post #76

On a ThinkPad X1 Carbon Gen 8, it's easily possible record video with the webcam LED off. I did not verify newer generations of the X1 Carbon. Lenovo put a little physical switch—they call it "ThinkShutter"—that serves to physically obstruct the webcam lens to prevent recording. It's supposed to have only two positions: lens obstructed or not. But if the user accidentally slides it halfway, you can still record video…

How does malware move the plastic?

The malware posts comments like OP to lots of hacker oriented message boards, prompting all curiously minded ThinkPad X1 Carbon Gen 8 owners to verify that the comment tells the truth by trying it for themselves.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#418

Post by submeta »

When I was covering my webcam on a ThinkPad some 15 years ago, my coworker was laughing at me. Until he read about the Snowden revelations. We learned that everything can be compromised. Bioses, chips, compilers, everything. And just because something should not be the case, doesn’t mean it won’t ever happen.

We should always assume that everything is possible in the digital world. And act accordingly.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#419

Post by afh1 »

lxgr wrote: post #10

Arguably a much, much bigger problem are the (many) microphones of modern devices. These usually get neither an LED nor a switch, and unlike cameras can't easily be covered, nor pointed away from potentially sensitive topics/subjects.

One can do whatever to one's computer, it doesn't matter if one is still carrying a microphone in one's pocket the whole day and sleeping next to it too.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#420

Post by michaelt »

ddalex wrote: post #357
oneshtein wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can buy/print and stick a physical «webcam cover»[1] manually on your notebook or phone. My current notebook, manufactured in 2023, has very thin bar on top of screen with camera, so I need a thin, U-like attachment for the switch, which is hard to find. [1]: https://www.printables.com/model/2479-webcam-cover-slider

Am I the only one that is not worried at all about the camera and super concerned about microphones ? The camera may see me staring into the screen, woo hoo. The microphones will hear everything I discuss, incl. confidential information. There is no physical microphone cover there, is it ?

The camera privacy issue arises because teenagers and college kids often have their computer in their bedroom.

So a webcam hack that lets them watch my 16 year old daughter study would also let them watch her sleeping, getting dressed, and making out with her boyfriend.

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