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Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

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Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#341

Post by rocqua »

hunter-gatherer wrote: post #277
Nursie wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends what your threat model is? Nobody but Abby and Ben care if Ben is caught admitting he cheated on Abby. But naked images of Abby can head off into the ether and be propagated more or less forever, turn up on hate sites, be detrimental to careers etc. If your threat model is leaking company secrets then sure, microphone bad, as is anything having access to any hardware on your machine. So sure, maybe people oug…

I'm not arguing a point here, but I'm curious what the actual number of instances exist where someone is naked or in some other extortionate way (accidently of course) potentially exposed from the position of their webcam. I too would be much more concerned about my microphone, where I know one had conversations that in front of or next to my machine that I wouldn't want "out there". In terms of where my camera is, I…

People watch porn on their laptops. Even just your orgasm face would be embarrassing for most people.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#342

Post by throw646577 »

nine_k wrote: post #305
542458 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hardwired on Macbooks. From Daring Fireball, quoting an email from an Apple engineer. > All cameras after [2008] were different: The hardware team tied the LED to a hardware signal from the sensor: If the (I believe) vertical sync was active, the LED would light up. There is NO firmware control to disable/enable the LED. The actual firmware is indeed flashable, but the part is not a generic part and there ar…

That's backwards. The LED should be connected to camera's power, or maybe camera's "enable" signal. It should not be operable via any firmware in any way. The led also has to be connected through a one-shot trigger (a transistor + a capacitor) so that it would light up, say, for at least 500 ms no matter how short the input pulse is. This would prevent making single shots hard to notice. Doing that, of course, would…

> The LED should be connected to camera's power, or maybe camera's "enable" signal.

Wiring it in like this is suboptimal because this way you might never see the LED light up if a still photo is surreptitiously captured. This has been a problem before: illicit captures that happen so quickly the LED never has time to warm up.

Controlling the LED programmatically from isolated hardware like this is better, because then you can light up the LED for long enough to make it clear to the user something actually happened. Which is what Apple does -- three seconds.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#343

Post by rocqua »

epistasis wrote: post #17

I can see why some people might be concerned about the camera, but I'm far more concerned by the microphone. There's far more sensitive and actionable information that can be gathered from me that way! I'm glad that macOS started putting a light in the menubar when the microphone is in use, but I'd prefer to have unhackable hardware for that instead.

How will microphone access be monetized?

For video, it is extortion. For microphone, it's much harder.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#344

Post by swiftcoder »

kimixa wrote: post #316
KennyBlanken wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what they said about the first gen Facetime cameras. "oooh don't worry, it's controlled in hardware!" We have no way of verifying that anything they said in that document is true.

It's clear Apple define "Hardware" as "Not using the main CPU". They've pretty much admitted it's firmware based, otherwise the T2 chip simply wouldn't be involved to be mentioned.

The T2 chip is mentioned in the quoted passage as an indicator of the architecture version, not necessarily an indicator that the T2 chip is directly involved

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#345

Post by perching_aix »

xxs wrote: post #273
perching_aix wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, I was using it semi-sarcastically too. This thing is slower than my old Pentium 4 would be, yet has a fast enough 30% to 3% battery discharge rate that it would make the speed of light itself blush.

The main culprit is that anyone estimating battery life in percentages. It's about voltage and current draw. The battery voltage can be read directly. About being slow, I suppose it does run windows and its infamous 'defender'

No, I think it's fairly easy to see that a third of the charge suddenly disappearing is a fairly uncommon behavior.

Same for your Windows idea...

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#346

Post by MrDrMcCoy »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #288
MaxikCZ wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A capacitor can hold enough charge to power led for noticable amount of time even if powered for a brief moment, no logic needed

Logic on an already existing ASIC is going to be cheaper than a capacitor.

This is counter-intuitive enough to warrant further explanation.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#347

Post by oneshtein »

jdblair wrote: post #325
nine_k wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's backwards. The LED should be connected to camera's power, or maybe camera's "enable" signal. It should not be operable via any firmware in any way. The led also has to be connected through a one-shot trigger (a transistor + a capacitor) so that it would light up, say, for at least 500 ms no matter how short the input pulse is. This would prevent making single shots hard to notice. Doing that, of course, would…

or, you can have a physical switch, like the Framework. that also hits your BOM but its not complex!

You can buy/print and stick a physical «webcam cover»[1] manually on your notebook or phone.

My current notebook, manufactured in 2023, has very thin bar on top of screen with camera, so I need a thin, U-like attachment for the switch, which is hard to find.

[1]: https://www.printables.com/model/2479-webcam-cover-slider

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#348

Post by perching_aix »

j16sdiz wrote: post #334
perching_aix wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for inspection, I do not have a problem trusting others. I just do not trust big corporations with remotely controlled binary blobs I'll just highlight this excerpt of your own words for you, and usher you to evaluate whether your position is even internally consistent.

(not OP) Don't think that is inconsistent. Trusting someone doing the right thing when you purchase is different from trusting them not tampering things remotely in the future. Companies can change management, human can change their mind. The time factor is important

Hardware can be and is implemented such that it changes behavior over time too, or have undisclosed remote capabilities. There are also fun features where various fuses blow internally if you do specific things the vendor doesn't fancy.

There sure is a difference in threat model, but I don't think the person I was replying to appreciates that, which is kind of what triggered my reply.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#349

Post by kirkules »

throw646577 wrote: post #342
nine_k wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's backwards. The LED should be connected to camera's power, or maybe camera's "enable" signal. It should not be operable via any firmware in any way. The led also has to be connected through a one-shot trigger (a transistor + a capacitor) so that it would light up, say, for at least 500 ms no matter how short the input pulse is. This would prevent making single shots hard to notice. Doing that, of course, would…

> The LED should be connected to camera's power, or maybe camera's "enable" signal. Wiring it in like this is suboptimal because this way you might never see the LED light up if a still photo is surreptitiously captured. This has been a problem before: illicit captures that happen so quickly the LED never has time to warm up. Controlling the LED programmatically from isolated hardware like this is better , because th…

I mean can't you just have the input signal to the light be a disjunction of signals? So it's on if the camera is on OR if some programmatic signal says turn it on?

I don't see why they should be mutually exclusive

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#350

Post by ghjfrdghibt »

This is why I like a self built PC over laptops. Now I'm sure there's still some way to spot on me via a PC with no built in camera or microphone but I bet it's more difficult.

I do have a laptop and it have a physical cover I can slide into place. Short of black blutack I've not got a decent option for the mic though.

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