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Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

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Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#211

Post by axoltl »

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #206
axoltl wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not very popular with the camera firmware folks for a while. They had to re-architect a bunch of things as they used to occasionally power on the camera logic without powering the sensor array to get information out of the built-in OTP. Because the LED now came on whenever the camera was powered they had to defer all that logic.

What does OTP stand for in this case? The camera PROM??

Apologies. OTP is One-Time-Programmable. The physical implementation of this varies, in this specific case it was efuses (anti-fuse, actually). It's used for things like calibration data. For a camera it contains information about the sensor (dead pixels, color correction curves, etc.).

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#212

Post by epistasis »

salutis wrote: post #43
epistasis wrote: post #17

I can see why some people might be concerned about the camera, but I'm far more concerned by the microphone. There's far more sensitive and actionable information that can be gathered from me that way! I'm glad that macOS started putting a light in the menubar when the microphone is in use, but I'd prefer to have unhackable hardware for that instead.

macOS is a proprietary binary blob, remotely controlled by Apple. So, the light in the menu bar is not a reliable indicator of anything. There is no privacy on macOS, nor any other proprietary system. You can never be 100% sure what the system is doing right now, as can be anything it is capable of. Apple is putting a lot of money to "teach people" otherwise, but that is marketing, not truth.

Once malware is installed, the proprietary blobs from my hardware vendor are the least of my concerns. Thus my request for hardware.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#213

Post by m463 »

sbarre wrote: post #3

I thought the whole point of these camera LEDs was to have them wired to/through the power to the camera, so they are always on when the camera is getting power, no matter what. Having the LED control exposed through the firmware completely defeats this.

There was a school district that took pictures of the kids at home.

They briefly saw the LED flash.

But it was not on for any length of time and you could miss it.

This stuff should be completely in hardware, and sensible - stay on for a minimum time, and have a hardware cutoff switch.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#214

Post by perching_aix »

lxgr wrote: post #205
kube-system wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easier than reading all of the code in Ubuntu.

But still entirely impossible. So does it matter?

Network traffic monitoring is routinely done at enterprises. It's usually part-automated using the typical approaches (rules and AI), and part-manual (via a dedicated SOC team).

There are actual compromises caught this way too, it's not (entirely) just for show. A high-profile example would be Kaspersky catching a sophisticated data exfiltration campaign at their own headquarters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f6YyH62jFE

So it is definitely possible, just maybe not how you imagine it being done.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#215

Post by camtarn »

wkat4242 wrote: post #209

I'm surprised how much these X230s are still being used. People who love real keyboards love them. Personally I didn't think Lenovo's later keyboards were too bad. The one on my T490s was wonderful. However since my work moved to the T14s series, the keyboards have become terrible. The key movement range is too low now, and the feel is crap. It's too bad because Lenovo was the last holdout which still had decent keyb…

100% agree with you on the keyboards. I had an X220, then a T490, and now I'm on an E16. The keyboard has gotten noticeably worse every time I've upgraded, sacrificing key travel and feel for flatness. It's such a shame - I would happily take a little extra body thickness for a nicer feeling keyboard.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#216

Post by perching_aix »

throwaway81523 wrote: post #170

Another demonstration that duct tape can fix almost everything. Put a little over the webcam and presto, no more malware spying on you through webcam video. Now about something for the microphone?

And arguably if one applies duct tape all over the laptop, the laptop can no longer be used, therefore no data can be input into it, preventing that data to be then exfiltrated by malware. A truly versatile product.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#218

Post by aendruk »

connicpu wrote: post #72
sbarre wrote: post #3

I thought the whole point of these camera LEDs was to have them wired to/through the power to the camera, so they are always on when the camera is getting power, no matter what. Having the LED control exposed through the firmware completely defeats this.

An indicator light hardwired is nice but I apparently can't trust hardware manufacturers to design it properly. My work laptop (HP Dragonfly) has a physical blocker that closes over the camera when I haven't explicitly pressed the button that enables the camera. The blocker is black and white stripes so it's very obvious when it's covering the sensor. This should absolutely be the security standard we all strive for…

> The blocker is black and white stripes

On my ThinkPad it’s instead painted with a red dot. Because, obviously, the conventional meaning of a red dot appearing on a camera is “not recording”.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#219

Post by cthalupa »

perching_aix wrote: post #63
TZubiri wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A minimum light duration seems pretty trivial to physically engineer. For one the energy to take a picture is probably enough to power a light for a noticeable amount of time. And if it isn't, a capacitor that absorbs energy and only allows energy through once it's full would allow the light to remain on for a couple of seconds after power subsides.

Wasn't arguing that it's difficult, just that it's needed (and that I'm not expecting it to be done in practice. Because the indicator LED on my laptop doesn't do it either, despite being enterprise grade).

My 2023 MBP webcam light stays on for nearly 3 seconds after the webcam itself turns off.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#220

Post by to11mtm »

Is this even news news?

As other mentioned Apple has had either good circuit design or now 'attestation' (which has other concerns, but that's more of a state actor worry).

That said it reminds me of the fun reversal of how a decade or so ago, Windows Phone 'lost' the ability to get the hot app SnapChat, because they did not want to give apps the ability to 'detect' a screenshot command in the name of privacy. Now, We have Copilot on windows, and LinkedIn tells me when I've screenshotted a post as a notification.

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