How does the Macbook check the ambient light to determine the screen brightness, does it have a separate ambient light detector buried under the screen somewhere or inside the camera? (if the camera is not used for this I mean which would have been the best thing to do, but would require the camera to grab frames now and then without the LED flashing)
Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230
121–130 of 554 posts
Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
Eh. If it's not a physical power-disconnect switch, one could imagine it still being able to record audio, which still sucks.
The microphone is usually not part of the camera assembly in modern laptops. And there is usually more than one. For example, recent Macbooks have three, as far as I know.
Oh, bummer. I definitely had assumed that they were a single "device".
Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230
#123I can see why some people might be concerned about the camera, but I'm far more concerned by the microphone. There's far more sensitive and actionable information that can be gathered from me that way! I'm glad that macOS started putting a light in the menubar when the microphone is in use, but I'd prefer to have unhackable hardware for that instead.
I believe it is possible to turn a speaker into a microphone. Found a paper which claims to do just that[0]. So, there is no safety anywhere? SPEAKE(a)R: Turn Speakers to Microphones for Fun and Profit It is possible to manipulate the headphones (or earphones) connected to a computer, silently turning them into a pair of eavesdropping microphones - with software alone. The same is also true for some types of loudspea…
This only works on audio chipsets that allow pin retasking. Which is, coincidentally, all Realtek chipsets that are present in every PC...
(you also need to plug the speaker directly, mostly limiting it to headphones and laptop speakers)
Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting, my work HP Probook does not have that functionality. I wonder why HP chooses to do this only for some laptop lines.
I suspect most people don't want it. I can imagine lots of people calling customer service "Q: why doesn't my camera work?", "A: Did you open the cover?" There's just a valid an argument to do the same for phones. How many phones ship with camera covers and how many users want them? You can get a stick on camera cover for $5 or less if you want one. I have them on my laptops but not on my phone. They came in packs of…
I had that exact discussion with somebody recently, and it took me a few minutes to realize that their laptop had a physical camera cover that somehow disables camera permissions in windows too. So yeah, happens a ton I would imagine.
Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
macOS is a proprietary binary blob, remotely controlled by Apple. So, the light in the menu bar is not a reliable indicator of anything. There is no privacy on macOS, nor any other proprietary system. You can never be 100% sure what the system is doing right now, as can be anything it is capable of. Apple is putting a lot of money to "teach people" otherwise, but that is marketing, not truth.
The root of all trust is eventually some human, or group of humans. See "Reflections on Trusting Trust." At least so far, Apple has convinced me that they are both willing and competent enough to maintain that trust.
Myself, I stopped trusting Apple. There are now too many dark patterns in their software, especially once one stops using their services. And, DRM was re-instantiated, when iTunes started streaming as Apple Music. On top of that, their lies, such as those about the Butterfly keyboards being fixed, cost me a fortune. They fuck up the keyboard design, and then they buy the computer back for 40% of its original price, due to a microscopic scratch nobody else could see. And that happened twice to me. They put a lot of money into advertising themselves as being ethical, but that is only marketing. These, of course, are my personal opinions.
Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230
#126Don't even understand why laptops have cameras and microphones. If you're serious about video meetings you'll want an external camera anyway. I keep covering them up with bits of paper (because like most people, I don't trust LEDs or switches) that look ugly and invariably get blown off by a gust of wind and have to be reapplied when moving. It just seems like at some point around 2010 some cabal decided that every d…
There's lots of people who aren't "serious about video meetings" but still want to be able to do a face-to-face chat with family or whatnot.
So get a $15 USB webcam.
Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230
#127I thought the whole point of these camera LEDs was to have them wired to/through the power to the camera, so they are always on when the camera is getting power, no matter what. Having the LED control exposed through the firmware completely defeats this.
An indicator light hardwired is nice but I apparently can't trust hardware manufacturers to design it properly. My work laptop (HP Dragonfly) has a physical blocker that closes over the camera when I haven't explicitly pressed the button that enables the camera. The blocker is black and white stripes so it's very obvious when it's covering the sensor. This should absolutely be the security standard we all strive for…
Probably the camera “power” is always on as any other microcontroller on the same board, but is only active when called through the control bus or an interrupt, having an LED tied to the power rail would keep it on all the time whenever the lapop is on.
Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting, my work HP Probook does not have that functionality. I wonder why HP chooses to do this only for some laptop lines.
I suspect most people don't want it. I can imagine lots of people calling customer service "Q: why doesn't my camera work?", "A: Did you open the cover?" There's just a valid an argument to do the same for phones. How many phones ship with camera covers and how many users want them? You can get a stick on camera cover for $5 or less if you want one. I have them on my laptops but not on my phone. They came in packs of…
i miss android popup cameras.
Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230
#129Arguably a much, much bigger problem are the (many) microphones of modern devices. These usually get neither an LED nor a switch, and unlike cameras can't easily be covered, nor pointed away from potentially sensitive topics/subjects.
>These usually get neither an LED nor a switch
Lots of ThinkPads have «Microphone is muted» LED. Not exactly what's requested (and is bound to a software mute/unmute shortcut), but it's better than nothing regarding state of machine being observable with a quick glance.
Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
At the same time we're at a point where synthesizing your voice is getting more trivial everyday, you need only a few seconds of it and you can be made to say whatever someone wants.
Sure, but that doesn’t mean they learn everything I said: Passwords, personal details etc. Also, getting a voice sample in the first place gets significantly easier that way: Not everybody publishes video or audio recordings of themselves online.
> Passwords
Which reminds me, to strengthen your point, it doesn't have 100% keystroke recognition, but there are works[1] on keylogging via audio, and 93% via Zoom-quality audio streams is concerning enough for me.