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Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

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Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#111

Post by lxgr »

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #58
lxgr wrote: post #10

Arguably a much, much bigger problem are the (many) microphones of modern devices. These usually get neither an LED nor a switch, and unlike cameras can't easily be covered, nor pointed away from potentially sensitive topics/subjects.

At the same time we're at a point where synthesizing your voice is getting more trivial everyday, you need only a few seconds of it and you can be made to say whatever someone wants.

Sure, but that doesn’t mean they learn everything I said: Passwords, personal details etc.

Also, getting a voice sample in the first place gets significantly easier that way: Not everybody publishes video or audio recordings of themselves online.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#112

Post by duskwuff »

okasaki wrote: post #39

Don't even understand why laptops have cameras and microphones. If you're serious about video meetings you'll want an external camera anyway. I keep covering them up with bits of paper (because like most people, I don't trust LEDs or switches) that look ugly and invariably get blown off by a gust of wind and have to be reapplied when moving. It just seems like at some point around 2010 some cabal decided that every d…

There's lots of people who aren't "serious about video meetings" but still want to be able to do a face-to-face chat with family or whatnot.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#113

Post by ndiddy »

aftbit wrote: post #71
542458 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hardwired on Macbooks. From Daring Fireball, quoting an email from an Apple engineer. > All cameras after [2008] were different: The hardware team tied the LED to a hardware signal from the sensor: If the (I believe) vertical sync was active, the LED would light up. There is NO firmware control to disable/enable the LED. The actual firmware is indeed flashable, but the part is not a generic part and there ar…

>The actual firmware is indeed flashable, but the part is not a generic part and there are mechanisms in place to verify the image being flashed. That might make it harder to develop a hack, but one would hope that if the hardware team tied the LED to a hardware signal, it would not matter if the firmware were reflashed.

The context from the article the parent comment linked is that Mac webcams made prior to 2008 both had the camera LED controlled in firmware and didn't verify the camera firmware blob when it was downloaded into the camera's RAM. The quote you're replying to simply says that Apple solved these security issues by tying the LED to a hardware signal AND verifying the camera firmware blob. The result is still that there's no way to turn on the webcam without making the LED light up.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#114

Post by Pwngu »

Eavolution wrote: post #94

I am not a hardware engineer or anything of the sort. My laptop has a slide shutter over the webcam, but this obviously does nothing about the microphone. How difficult/error prone would it be for the power signals to the microphone and camera to be individual wires/traces and have a physical switch that breaks the power or data connection physically? Surely these are very low voltage so the switch could be like the…

My Framework 13 has this - 2 physical switches next to the camera. I would assume (but haven't checked), that they physically disconnect the camera/mic.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#115

Post by bluGill »

ortusdux wrote: post #9
sbarre wrote: post #3

I thought the whole point of these camera LEDs was to have them wired to/through the power to the camera, so they are always on when the camera is getting power, no matter what. Having the LED control exposed through the firmware completely defeats this.

I'd like a law to this effect.

We may already have this law. If the manufactures makes claims about this LED, then that this attack is possible mean a lawyer can force them to recall and fix everything.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#116

Post by RA2lover »

MaxikCZ wrote: post #87
varenc wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that it’s not literally hardwired in the sense that powering up the camera also powers up the camera LED, and instead this relies on logic in the hopefully un-flashable camera+LED firmware. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. You need some logic to enforce things like a minimum LED duration that keeps the LED on for a couple seconds even if the camera is only used to capture one brief frame. I have a script th…

A capacitor can hold enough charge to power led for noticable amount of time even if powered for a brief moment, no logic needed

The trick is to keep using the camera until that capacitor is discharged. I'm pretty sure most cameras can run at voltages below a LED's forward voltage nowadays.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#117

Post by ferbivore »

catlikesshrimp wrote: post #37
epistasis wrote: post #17

I can see why some people might be concerned about the camera, but I'm far more concerned by the microphone. There's far more sensitive and actionable information that can be gathered from me that way! I'm glad that macOS started putting a light in the menubar when the microphone is in use, but I'd prefer to have unhackable hardware for that instead.

Soldering iron to the rescue. Locate the microphone and unsolder it. I haven't seen any microphone integrated in the processor. Yet

M2 and newer MacBooks have an IMU on-board, which is just a funny way of spelling microphone. Admittedly a very low quality one; I'm not sure if you could pick up understandable speech at the 1.6kHz sample rate Bosch's IMUs seem to support.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#118

Post by nox101 »

kiwijamo wrote: post #84
connicpu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An indicator light hardwired is nice but I apparently can't trust hardware manufacturers to design it properly. My work laptop (HP Dragonfly) has a physical blocker that closes over the camera when I haven't explicitly pressed the button that enables the camera. The blocker is black and white stripes so it's very obvious when it's covering the sensor. This should absolutely be the security standard we all strive for…

Interesting, my work HP Probook does not have that functionality. I wonder why HP chooses to do this only for some laptop lines.

I suspect most people don't want it. I can imagine lots of people calling customer service "Q: why doesn't my camera work?", "A: Did you open the cover?"

There's just a valid an argument to do the same for phones. How many phones ship with camera covers and how many users want them?

You can get a stick on camera cover for $5 or less if you want one. I have them on my laptops but not on my phone. They came in packs of 6 so I have several left.

https://www.google.com/search?q=camera+cover+laptop

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#119

Post by INTPenis »

larusso wrote: post #4

I assumed that most if not all of these webcam LEDs are wired in series with the power to the camera itself. Which then makes it impossible to disable them. Who designs this LED to be software addressable?

>Who designs this LED to be software addressable?

The very first home made monitoring camera I made with a Raspberry Pi 1 and the camera module you could disable the LED in the config.

So it seems to be an old pattern. Definitely would make the most sense to focus on privacy and make the LED hard wired but here we are.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#120

Post by bluGill »

jiggawatts wrote: post #25
sbarre wrote: post #3

I thought the whole point of these camera LEDs was to have them wired to/through the power to the camera, so they are always on when the camera is getting power, no matter what. Having the LED control exposed through the firmware completely defeats this.

"Add an LED next to the camera, our customers demand it!" "Job done boss!" That's it. That's what happens. Nobody ever reviews anything in the general industry. It's extremely rare for anyone to raise a stink internally about anything like this, and if they do, they get shouted down as "That's more expensive" even if it is in every way cheaper, or "We'll have to repeat this work! Are you saying Bob's work was a waste…

Lawyers after the fact review this. I expect one to start a class action - they will make millions, and everyone else who has this laptop will get $1. The real point is the millions means every other company is on notice that these mistakes hurt the bottom line and so the industry starts to review these things. So long as it doesn't hurt they won't review.

I feel really dirty calling lawyers the good guy here, but ...

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