Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tesla excluded from EV buyer credits in California proposal

fortune.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 108 posts

Re: Tesla excluded from EV buyer credits in California proposal

#61

Post by infotainment »

echelon wrote: post #51
asteroidburger wrote: post #41

Twice recently I've traveled by air to visit an ill family member in CA. Both times I've reserved a hybrid, but given a "free upgrade" to an EV because the hybrids were gone. I stayed with family who don't have any charging infrastructure at home. The two DCFCs in town were constantly busy any time of day I tried them. My only saving grace was that the rental facility was apparently aware of this sort of problem, and…

I don't see how America will smoothly transition to EVs. It feels like we'll live in an ICE/EV dichotomy for a long time. EVs work great for a lot of people, but not everyone with an ICE vehicle wants an EV. Given the current status quo, some of them will never want an EV. A significant number of homes only have street parking available, thus no place to plug in. Not having access to home charging makes EV ownership…

Fundamentally the issue is one of battery tech. If you can build some kind of magical super-battery that can charge quickly and has 900 miles of rage, as Toyota claims to be doing, then all of those issues magically disappear.

That said, the BEST solution to commuting is being able to walk to your workplace, but unfortunately with America's terrible zoning policies everything will likely remain super far apart and unusable without a car forevermore.

Re: Tesla excluded from EV buyer credits in California proposal

#62

Post by AtlasBarfed »

NitpickLawyer wrote: post #52
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me underline this. Tesla was once a company that was a shining star of environmental hope. The legacy of Tesla providing economic paths to viable EVs shielded the company from the, uh, controversy of its CEO, which my comment history has a history of somewhat reluctant defense. Tesla is no longer that company. It is a barrier and a hinderance to EV adoption. Tesla is a luxury car company that is only interested i…

Outsider perspective: - EVERYONE wants to keep chinese EVs out of their marketplaces, EU included. It's gov on gov subsidies fighting and you either accept your own markets being crushed by loss-leaders or you don't. The fact that people see this as a red v blue stuff is mind boggling. - you play politics with your companies, you pay the price. This current admin had an EV summit and didn't invite the top dog? I mean…

Generally what the article discusses, and yeah my comment meandered a fair amount, is that should Tesla be specifically excluded from subsidies?

The EU has plausible progress from its mainline car makers in EV scaling. It can shield an entire industry with tariffs or targeted subsidies. The US is basically Tesla, some early stage startups, and the US companies only doing it because their activist shareholders would fire the US leadership of GM or Ford if they weren't being active.

The US is one company, and per my argument that company is no longer helping the overall health of the EV market. Honestly I think Chinese EVs would be a welcome kickstart to adoption in the US. At a minimum it would probably drive a vast amount of domestic manufacturing for onshore/nearshore chinese car factories, a sort of reverse-transfer of manufacturing technology/practice back to the US from China (from companies that are probably desperate to diversify their global footprint with the dire demographic and authoritarian future of China that is apparent).

If Musk wants to temper tantrum over that little meeting, then he is again not being a CEO. Again, HALF OF THEIR CUSTOMERS ARE DEMOCRATS. So not the middle third/half of Americans, not the quarter-right. You cannot alienate half of your customer base, and Tesla is going to find out what happens if a CEO plays politics.

Tesla is a company of passionate progressive thinking people that were willing to jump on board a radically new car company. Politics will be important to these buyers, because it is part and parcel of the brand identity.

This is marketing 101. Brands == Emotions == Identity == Investment. Musk has shattered the emotional and identity link of a huge amount of current and probably most future customers. For many, it won't just be weakened with some dose of comparmentalization/cognitive dissonance. For a large number, and probably some of the most passionate defenders (like me), it is poisoned.

So the CEO should have swallowed politics and played to his customer base. That is what CEOs and business is about. But that's not what happened.

Almost all Tesla owners I know were proponents and advocates for a decade. Since the election, they are now, at best, rationalizers. Many others regret the purchase and now will just ride out the current car/lease and "Never Tesla" again.

Re: Tesla excluded from EV buyer credits in California proposal

#63

Post by rcleveng »

asteroidburger wrote: post #41

Twice recently I've traveled by air to visit an ill family member in CA. Both times I've reserved a hybrid, but given a "free upgrade" to an EV because the hybrids were gone. I stayed with family who don't have any charging infrastructure at home. The two DCFCs in town were constantly busy any time of day I tried them. My only saving grace was that the rental facility was apparently aware of this sort of problem, and…

I wish AZ was as good at this as CA. I rented a tesla from avis in AZ and it was a train wreck. At rental they were pretty threatening about they didn't have a place to charge so it'd be huge fees if I didn't bring it back charged, and they also didn't include the adapter that they said to charge at non-tesla charging stations. It's was both super stressful and a total pain to find a supercharge for this nearby. It's almost as is Avis is trying to go out of their way to making EV's seem horrible for customers.

Re: Tesla excluded from EV buyer credits in California proposal

#64

Post by schobi »

asteroidburger wrote: post #41

Twice recently I've traveled by air to visit an ill family member in CA. Both times I've reserved a hybrid, but given a "free upgrade" to an EV because the hybrids were gone. I stayed with family who don't have any charging infrastructure at home. The two DCFCs in town were constantly busy any time of day I tried them. My only saving grace was that the rental facility was apparently aware of this sort of problem, and…

Most people miss, that you do not need a full and fast charging infrastructure at home. I rarely need to fill the car from empty. I rarely need to jump on the next multi hour trip right away.

If you "stay with family" I assume this is a few hours or overnight. Even slow charging from a regular outlet gives enough over night or a 6 hour stay. In Europe a regular outlet can give 3-4kW, so 6 hours is enough to go another 100km.

At work they installed a lot of 11kW chargers. Sure - some might need them, but most people would be fine with topping up their cars every day on a single phase charger. You park there for 6-8 hours, even at 3-4kW that would be enough for a daily 200km commute (which is rare, that guy can go to the 11kW charger).

I stayed in rural Italy with really old crappy electricity. Even there I could hookup the car on single phase at 1kW and keep charging. Two days later it was full again.

Re: Tesla excluded from EV buyer credits in California proposal

#65

Post by asteroidburger »

schobi wrote: post #64
asteroidburger wrote: post #41

Twice recently I've traveled by air to visit an ill family member in CA. Both times I've reserved a hybrid, but given a "free upgrade" to an EV because the hybrids were gone. I stayed with family who don't have any charging infrastructure at home. The two DCFCs in town were constantly busy any time of day I tried them. My only saving grace was that the rental facility was apparently aware of this sort of problem, and…

Most people miss, that you do not need a full and fast charging infrastructure at home. I rarely need to fill the car from empty. I rarely need to jump on the next multi hour trip right away. If you "stay with family" I assume this is a few hours or overnight. Even slow charging from a regular outlet gives enough over night or a 6 hour stay. In Europe a regular outlet can give 3-4kW, so 6 hours is enough to go anothe…

I used an L1 charger at home when I first bought my car; I'm familiar with the process and speed. But I didn't have the foresight to carry the L1 cord with me in my carry-on luggage, nor did I want to buy one to leave behind, so I was missing that very critical component. Rentals do not include any cables, so I had no way to go from a 5-15 outlet to a J1772 or NACS vehicle.

Re: Tesla excluded from EV buyer credits in California proposal

#66

Post by adastra22 »

czhu12 wrote: post #49
adastra22 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going a step further, why should there be tax incentives at all for a product that is wildly popular and seeing adoption even without a tax credit? These credits were introduced back when the field was new and the presumption was some government influence was necessary to jumpstart mass production.

Perhaps one can see it as the inverse of a tax on ICE vehicles without adding a tax? It will be revenue negative for the state but I think the net effect on consumers would be the same? I guess one could argue that a tax on ICE vehicles are to pay for the externalities of pollution

Taxpayers pay for the tax credit. An ICE tax would be added revenue.

Re: Tesla excluded from EV buyer credits in California proposal

#67

Post by maeil »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #43
ggm wrote: post #12

Surely the original credits model was based on volume? Ie, tesla are excluded from this because they've blown past the first 100,000 units sold. The point was to encourage diverse suppliers of models into the market. If this has the same goal (encourage new entrants, diverse sources) then what do you suggest they do?

Let me underline this. Tesla was once a company that was a shining star of environmental hope. The legacy of Tesla providing economic paths to viable EVs shielded the company from the, uh, controversy of its CEO, which my comment history has a history of somewhat reluctant defense. Tesla is no longer that company. It is a barrier and a hinderance to EV adoption. Tesla is a luxury car company that is only interested i…

> - They DESPERATELY want to keep Chinese EVs out of the marketplace, who have superior economics, possibly superior or at least equal drivetrain/system integration ability, and likely better and more flexible battery pack architectures especially for all the chemistry types (NMC, LFP, Sodium Ion). Thus they want tariffs.

Unless Trump is about to slap tariffs on all EV imports, not just China, it looks like a matter of time before the likes of Hyundai, Honda and Nissan are coming to eat their lunch (and maybe some day the Europeans or Toyota as well, though I'm sceptical).

Especially as Tesla is stuck with fundamentally flawed self-driving features while the others are working to get e.g. Waymo in their cars.

Re: Tesla excluded from EV buyer credits in California proposal

#68

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

afinlayson wrote: post #45
SirWart wrote: post #33

Why should California taxpayers subsidize other Californians to buy EVs that are made in other states? Like if you care about emissions aren't the cars made in California using California's relatively green electricity, higher worker standards, and short distance to travel after manufacture better than ones made elsewhere? Even if you don't want to support Tesla, not even having a carveout for cars manufactured in th…

It’s less that they are made in other states. It’s that they used all the resources here then left after making it big. Pull up the ladder after succeeding.

What resources did they “use up”? Also they still manufacture in CA right?

Re: Tesla excluded from EV buyer credits in California proposal

#69

Post by jjav »

schobi wrote: post #64
asteroidburger wrote: post #41

Twice recently I've traveled by air to visit an ill family member in CA. Both times I've reserved a hybrid, but given a "free upgrade" to an EV because the hybrids were gone. I stayed with family who don't have any charging infrastructure at home. The two DCFCs in town were constantly busy any time of day I tried them. My only saving grace was that the rental facility was apparently aware of this sort of problem, and…

Most people miss, that you do not need a full and fast charging infrastructure at home. I rarely need to fill the car from empty. I rarely need to jump on the next multi hour trip right away. If you "stay with family" I assume this is a few hours or overnight. Even slow charging from a regular outlet gives enough over night or a 6 hour stay. In Europe a regular outlet can give 3-4kW, so 6 hours is enough to go anothe…

> I assume this is a few hours or overnight. Even slow charging from a regular outlet gives enough over night or a 6 hour stay.

Not even close. We don't have a fast charger at home, so just charging from regular outlet. We charge from midnight to 3pm, or 15 hours a day (these are the cheaper hours with PG&E, although still a ripoff).

That's not enough to charge fully in a day. Fortunately my partner only goes to work every other day, so it's ok. If we needed the car every day, it wouldn't work.

Re: Tesla excluded from EV buyer credits in California proposal

#70

Post by Yizahi »

schobi wrote: post #64
asteroidburger wrote: post #41

Twice recently I've traveled by air to visit an ill family member in CA. Both times I've reserved a hybrid, but given a "free upgrade" to an EV because the hybrids were gone. I stayed with family who don't have any charging infrastructure at home. The two DCFCs in town were constantly busy any time of day I tried them. My only saving grace was that the rental facility was apparently aware of this sort of problem, and…

Most people miss, that you do not need a full and fast charging infrastructure at home. I rarely need to fill the car from empty. I rarely need to jump on the next multi hour trip right away. If you "stay with family" I assume this is a few hours or overnight. Even slow charging from a regular outlet gives enough over night or a 6 hour stay. In Europe a regular outlet can give 3-4kW, so 6 hours is enough to go anothe…

Most people miss that most people in the world live in the apartments and not in the private houses. I wouldn't be able to charge EV at home even via 1A usb cable, simply because there is no wiring whatsoever on the parking.
Post reply on HN