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I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

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Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#161

Post by cess11 »

tapoxi wrote: post #102
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

This read as "old man yells at cloud" to me. I've managed a few thousand VMs in the past, and I'm extremely grateful for it. An image is built in CI, service declares what it needs, the scheduler just handles shit. I'm paged significantly less and things are predictable and consistent unlike the world of VMs where even your best attempt at configuration management would result in drift, because the CM system is only…

I'd prefer Ansible if I was running VM:s. Did that at a gig, controlled a vCenter cluster and hundreds of machines in it, much nicer experience than Kubernetes style ops. Easier to do ad hoc troubleshooting and logging for one.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#162

Post by _flux »

rixed wrote: post #158
_flux wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the container orchestration tool of choice beyond docker swarm, then?

Is nomad still around?

Thanks, hadn't heard of that.

Seems pretty active per its commit activity: https://github.com/hashicorp/nomad/graphs/commit-activity

But the fact that I hadn't heard of it before makes it sound not very popular, at least not for the bubble I live in :).

Does anyone have any practical experiences to share about it?

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#163

Post by fer »

sobellian wrote: post #83
nicce wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how much this costs extra? Sounds like you are using cloud-provided k8s.

EKS is priced at $876 / yr / cluster at current rates. Negligible for me personally, it's much less than either our EC2 or RDS costs.

Yeah, using EKS isn't the same thing as "administering k8s", unless I misread you above. Actual administration is already done for you, it's batteries included, turn-key, and integrated with everything AWS.

A job ago we had our own k8s cluster in our own DC, and it required a couple of teams to keep running and reasonably integrated with everything else in the rest of the company. It was probably cheaper overall than cloud given the compute capacity we had, but also probably not by much given the amount of people dedicated to it.

Even my 3-node k3s at home requires more attention than what you described.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#164

Post by worldsayshi »

honkycat wrote: post #26
pclmulqdq wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The attraction of this stuff is mostly the ability to keep your infrastructure configurations as code. However, I have previously checked in my systemd cofig files for projects and set up a script to pull them on new systems. It's not clear that docker-compose or even kubernetes* is that much more complicated if you are only running 3 things. * if you are an experienced user

Having done both: running a small Kubernetes cluster is simpler than managing a bunch of systemd files.

Yeah this is my impression as well which makes me not understand the k8s hate.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#165

Post by usrme »

oron wrote: post #87

I just use a single k3s install on a single bare metal from Hetzner or OVH, works like charm, very clean deployments, much more stable than docker-compose and 1/10 of the cost of AWS or similar.

Do you have a write-up about this that you have to share, even if it's someone else's? I'd be curious to try this out.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#166

Post by pletnes »

tayo42 wrote: post #131
voidfunc wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you don't run any databases in those thousands of clusters? We do, but not of the SQL variety (that I am aware of). We have persistent key-value and document store databases hosted in these clusters. SQL databases are off-loaded to managed offering's in the cloud. Admittedly, this does simplify a lot of problems for us.

How much data? I keep hearing k8s isn't usable becasue sometimes there is to much data and it can't be moved around.

The simplest approach I’m aware of is to create the k8s cluster and databases in the same datacenter / availability zone.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#167

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

fragmede wrote: post #139
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I'll let you in on the joke. The joke is the demand for 100% availability and instant gratification. we're making services where anything less than 4 nines, which is 5 minutes month, is deemed unacceptable. three nines is 10 minutes a week. two nines is 15 minutes a day. there are some things that are important enough that you can't take a coffee break and wait for, but Kubernetes lets you push four nines of availabi…

4 nines is a lie. That's not what I experience as a user. I experience 403, 404, 405, 500, or other forms of down, such as difficult captchas, 2fa not working, geolocation blockages etc several times a day.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#168

Post by creesch »

teekert wrote: post #153
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

Sorry to have to tell you this, but you’re old. Your neural plasticity has gone down and you feel like you have seen it al before. As a result you cling to the old and never feel like you grasp the new. The only reasonable thing to is to acknowledge and accept this and try not let it get in your way. Our generation has seen many things before, but at the same time the world has completely changed and it’s led to the…

While this is a nice essay, it also is purely an emotional argument hanging together from assumptions and fallacies.

Even if you are right in this instance, just brushing things off with the "you are old" argument will ensure that you end up in some horrible tech debt spaghetti mess in the future.

Being critical of the infrastructure you deploy to is a good thing. Because for all the new things that do stick around, there are dozens of other shiny new hyped up things that end up in digital purgatory quite soon after the hype phase is over.

That's not to say there isn't some truth to your statement. The older you get, the more critical you do need to be to yourself as well. Because it is indeed possible to just be against something because it is new and unfamiliar. At the same time, does experience provide insights allowing senior people to be more critical to things.

*tl;dr:* The world is complicated, not binary.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#169

Post by mollusk »

tapoxi wrote: post #102
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

This read as "old man yells at cloud" to me. I've managed a few thousand VMs in the past, and I'm extremely grateful for it. An image is built in CI, service declares what it needs, the scheduler just handles shit. I'm paged significantly less and things are predictable and consistent unlike the world of VMs where even your best attempt at configuration management would result in drift, because the CM system is only…

> "old man yells at cloud"

Literally.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#170

Post by bob1029 »

tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

Cloud is a broad spectrum of tools. I think the Goldilocks zone is something right in between bare-ass VMs and FaaS.

If I can restart the machine and it magically resolves the underlying hardware fault (presumably by migrating me to a new host), then I am in a happy place.

Most of the other problems can be dealt with using modern tooling. I lean aggressively on things like SQLite and self-contained deployments in .NET to reduce complexity at hosting time.

When you can deploy your entire solution with a single zip file you would be crazy to go for something like K8s.

One other cloud thing that is useful is S3-style services. Clever use of these APIs can provide incredible horizontal scalability for a single instance solution. SQLite on NVMe is very fast if you are offloading your blobs to another provider.

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