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Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

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Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#81

Post by handfuloflight »

ralmidani wrote: post #63
pushupentry1219 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Muslims say that Islam _was_ the religion of all the prophets you've mentioned. Because of this they also believe that Islam is the _oldest_ religion, since Adam, the first man, followed Islam.

“Islam” as a named religion with its own prescribed rituals and laws is specific to the message preached in Arabia in the 7th century. “Muslim” is a more transcendent term that encompasses all the prophets mentioned in the Quran, as well as those not mentioned. Their creed and state of mind (absolute submission to God’s will) is the same, but they did not follow a religion called “Islam”. Earlier prophets and their f…

I don't see why "Islam" could not also be seen as a transcendent term, in that any religion that was revealed by God through a prophet or messenger is Islam, in so far as that religion conforms to His will.

Quran 3:19 Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam.

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#82

Post by mensetmanusman »

ralmidani wrote: post #76
mensetmanusman wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For completeness to the reader, the creed preached by Jesus is historically very different. Rejection of Jesus’s Divinity: • Islam acknowledges Jesus (Isa) as a prophet but explicitly denies His divinity or status as the Son of God. The Qur’an states: “He [Jesus] was no more than a servant: We granted Our favor to him” (Qur’an 43:59). • The Qur’an emphasizes that Jesus did not die on the cross but was raised to heave…

This is not by any means a “complete” picture. There was no consensus that Jesus is divine, or about the nature of the divinity ascribed to him, even after the declaration in 325 of the Nicene Creed - from which 5 bishops abstained and were at least temporarily exiled. This NPR interview with Bart Ehrman, a former Evangelical who later became a historian and wrote “How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Pre…

There is never a consensus on anything until one decides who the interpreters are :)

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#83

Post by noufalibrahim »

dieppe wrote: post #46
karim79 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please elaborate on 'representational art' in this context?

There's a _great_ book about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Name_Is_Red Helps understand how arts, religion, and power are intermingled. Made me question what we mean by "tradition" ; they always seemed fixed to a present observer, but are also the result of constant change. Anyway, there's more to the book and it is really a great read (maybe more so if like me you know close to nothing about the Ottoman emp…

Thanks for the recommendation. There's considerable latitude in implementation of the rulings. Even within the law itself, there are strong/weak positions, dispensations for some circumstances etc. Among schools of thought, there are differences in opinions which might, to a non specialist, seem very trivial but they have huge consequences when implemented at scale. Music and it's role in the Ottoman sultanate is one example that comes to mind.

And outside of that, there are cultural, economic and human factors that also have their effect on the practice (and sometimes even the theory) of religion.

Generally speaking, Islamic canon law keeps evolving over time while trying to stay faithful to first principles. It's a specialist field and requires a lot of time and study to formulate rulings. It's the reason why, I mentioned in another comment that studying the basics from a derived text is sufficient for "most Muslims". People often turn to the primary texts for general guidance and succor but for details about a narrow situation, they refer to the other books or speak to a scholar.

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#84

Post by MrMcCall »

handfuloflight wrote: post #80
MrMcCall wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only the Quran is guaranteed to be unchanged (but the interpretations and translations are not so guaranteed), the Hadiths are not. The proper perspective is that if the Hadith and Quran are in conflict, the Quran is the authoratative source. From our Sufi perspective, the Hadiths are a lot of game of telephone. And if the Quran is difficult to apply, remember that compassion is the entire purpose of all God's religi…

> From our Sufi perspective, the Hadiths are a lot of game of telephone. Devaluing ahadith is a minority position in Sufism. The transmission of authentic hadith is not dissimilar to the transmission of the Quran.

Compassion has always been the minority position for all human beings, regardless of religiosity. That's why the world is the way it is. For most people, selfishness for their group is the reason they claim any religious affiliation whatsoever.

The Quran says, "Do not break into sects." And yet, Sunnis and Shiites are at each other's throats.

The sects that the Quran are referring to, however, are any sects amongh human beings. We are one human race, and we are to love each other regardless of our culture of origin. And we are to defend the innocent and help the poor, irrespective of which side either claim as their own.

And, no, the hadith do not have the same purity as the Quran, although the interpretations of the Quran do not have any guarantees either.

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#85

Post by MrMcCall »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #64
MrMcCall wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only the Quran is guaranteed to be unchanged (but the interpretations and translations are not so guaranteed), the Hadiths are not. The proper perspective is that if the Hadith and Quran are in conflict, the Quran is the authoratative source. From our Sufi perspective, the Hadiths are a lot of game of telephone. And if the Quran is difficult to apply, remember that compassion is the entire purpose of all God's religi…

>And if the Quran is difficult to apply, remember that compassion is the entire purpose of all God's religions. Clearly a few of gods prophets dropped the ball pretty hard on this one. To bad he isn't interested in correcting the record.

God has left the truth in our hands to honor or disrespect as per our free will's choices. When a person truly loves God, they will love other human beings. If a person wants worldly power and self-superiority, they will live in destructive ignorance, no matter what path they claim to follow.

What a person says and does is little compared to what their intentions reveal. That is why God always looks at our heart to determine our worth.

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#86

Post by handfuloflight »

MrMcCall wrote: post #84
handfuloflight wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From our Sufi perspective, the Hadiths are a lot of game of telephone. Devaluing ahadith is a minority position in Sufism. The transmission of authentic hadith is not dissimilar to the transmission of the Quran.

Compassion has always been the minority position for all human beings, regardless of religiosity. That's why the world is the way it is. For most people, selfishness for their group is the reason they claim any religious affiliation whatsoever. The Quran says, "Do not break into sects." And yet, Sunnis and Shiites are at each other's throats. The sects that the Quran are referring to, however, are any sects amongh hu…

I did not say the hadith have the same purity as the Quran, that being an argument with nebulous and undefined terms, we don't know what "purity" means here.

Rather I said it has similar methods of transmission, that being oral transmission. The same groups of people who transmitted ahadith also transmitted the Quran. Doubting their transmission in one instance puts doubt on the other. Yes hadith have been forged but there is a whole science developed and employed to grade their veracity, the veracity of which if rejected, especially in the case of mass transmission also rejects the veracity of Quranic transmission which is a tawatur (mass) transmission.

> although the interpretations of the Quran do not have any guarantees either.

Then that applies to your own interpretations as well. Quran 49:13 contradicts your broad understanding of the meaning of sects as does the concept of 'ummah' which appears 6 times in the Quran. Distinctions among human beings is ordained from above and thus distinctions alone cannot constitute error which is what I am reading from your understanding of what sects mean.

I don't understand what the point of making that argument is, putting the Sunnis and Shiis at odds with each other and then invoking the term Sufi. Your assessment doesn't add up, with all due respect, unless your claim is that your Sufism is the one true Islam. That just goes back to reinforcing sects.

Moreover, Sufism historically developed within the framework of Sunni Islam, with most major turuq operating within Sunni legal schools and their founders being prominent Sunni scholars. So invoking Sufism as somehow transcending or negating these divisions misunderstands its historical development and position within Islamic tradition.

And for the record, I am initiated with a Sufi tariqa.

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#87

Post by jacobolus »

ashoeafoot wrote: post #33
jacobolus wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Churches probably have some kind of theological explanation, but alternately kneeling, sitting, and standing is much better physiologically. Having a large and diverse group of people all stay in the same position for an extended period is very rough on their bodies, and some more than others. Periodically switching prevents injuries caused by maintaining too much static load for too long in any one place. Probably a…

it is all things but diverse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_Middle_...

Any typical religious service includes a diverse group of people, physiologically: men and women, people of all ages, people of various body shapes and levels of fitness, etc., for some of whom it's especially bad to sit in one position for an extended time.

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#89

Post by noufalibrahim »

handfuloflight wrote: post #86
MrMcCall wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compassion has always been the minority position for all human beings, regardless of religiosity. That's why the world is the way it is. For most people, selfishness for their group is the reason they claim any religious affiliation whatsoever. The Quran says, "Do not break into sects." And yet, Sunnis and Shiites are at each other's throats. The sects that the Quran are referring to, however, are any sects amongh hu…

I did not say the hadith have the same purity as the Quran, that being an argument with nebulous and undefined terms, we don't know what "purity" means here. Rather I said it has similar methods of transmission, that being oral transmission. The same groups of people who transmitted ahadith also transmitted the Quran. Doubting their transmission in one instance puts doubt on the other. Yes hadith have been forged but…

> Moreover, Sufism historically developed within the framework of Sunni Islam, with most major turuq operating within Sunni legal schools and their founders being prominent Sunni scholars. So invoking Sufism as somehow transcending or negating these divisions misunderstands its historical development and position within Islamic tradition.

That's how the turuq and everything else around it originated and has been for the majority of Islamic history. A modern "modern" meaning of the term sufi is not particularly Islamic and ignores most of Islamic orthrodoxy. It exists but it doesn't have much in common with Islam except the name "sufi".

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#90

Post by handfuloflight »

noufalibrahim wrote: post #89
handfuloflight wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not say the hadith have the same purity as the Quran, that being an argument with nebulous and undefined terms, we don't know what "purity" means here. Rather I said it has similar methods of transmission, that being oral transmission. The same groups of people who transmitted ahadith also transmitted the Quran. Doubting their transmission in one instance puts doubt on the other. Yes hadith have been forged but…

> Moreover, Sufism historically developed within the framework of Sunni Islam, with most major turuq operating within Sunni legal schools and their founders being prominent Sunni scholars. So invoking Sufism as somehow transcending or negating these divisions misunderstands its historical development and position within Islamic tradition. That's how the turuq and everything else around it originated and has been for…

Yes, terms can be co-opted outside of their origins.

That's irrelevant to this discussion, my interlocutor takes the Quran to be revelation from God, as per Islamic orthodoxy. That is, the vast majority of Sufis since the birth of Islam have been Sunni Muslims.

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