Levels of aspiration • Hacker News Board

Re: Levels of aspiration

#11

Post by smacktoward » Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 5:31 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #8

Udo wrote: post #4

To help someone move up the hierarchies, they have to have an intrisic (sic) desire to do so. Arguments like “but it works” or “it gets the job done” are tell-tell signs of someone happy at the lowest level of the technical hierarchy and your cue to just quietly back out of the debate. For an article that claims we need software "in all shapes and sizes" the amount of smug superiority exhibited here is amazing. Yes,…

It’s close enough to Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs to work for me. I’m more concerned with whether the general idea adds some value to my thinking than trying to take them down a peg for any perceived smugness. And speaking as an ex-salesperson, this general model is extremely relevant when attempting to persuade someone to change. Within the narrow confine of a single decision, different people are at different places…

I find I get a lot less out of essays I read if I get sidetracked into making value judgments about the authors

Similarly, I find I get a lot less out of essays when it seems that the authors are making value judgments about me.

Re: Levels of aspiration

#12

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 5:34 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #10

raganwald wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s close enough to Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs to work for me. I’m more concerned with whether the general idea adds some value to my thinking than trying to take them down a peg for any perceived smugness. And speaking as an ex-salesperson, this general model is extremely relevant when attempting to persuade someone to change. Within the narrow confine of a single decision, different people are at different places…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Levels of aspiration

#13

Post by raganwald » Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 5:38 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #11

raganwald wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s close enough to Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs to work for me. I’m more concerned with whether the general idea adds some value to my thinking than trying to take them down a peg for any perceived smugness. And speaking as an ex-salesperson, this general model is extremely relevant when attempting to persuade someone to change. Within the narrow confine of a single decision, different people are at different places…

I find I get a lot less out of essays I read if I get sidetracked into making value judgments about the authors Similarly, I find I get a lot less out of essays when it seems that the authors are making value judgments about me.

Again you inject the authors into the discussion. Why don’t we pretend I have this warehouse full of monkeys tapping on typewriters. We walk by one of the monkeys and look at what it has written. Hmm, seems interesting. It could be all wrong, it could be useful. Why can’t we just just examine the words on the paper for what they are and see if they're useful to think about?

If you’d rather not, you go your way and I will go mine.

Re: Levels of aspiration

#14

Post by frankc » Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 5:38 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #4

To help someone move up the hierarchies, they have to have an intrisic (sic) desire to do so. Arguments like “but it works” or “it gets the job done” are tell-tell signs of someone happy at the lowest level of the technical hierarchy and your cue to just quietly back out of the debate. For an article that claims we need software "in all shapes and sizes" the amount of smug superiority exhibited here is amazing. Yes,…

The irony of the whole thing is that it is usually the pragmatists and not the idealists who wind up "moving industry forward", because by definition, the pragmatists get things done. The world needs C not lisp.

Re: Levels of aspiration

#15

Post by tjr » Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 5:40 PM UTC

Would not the top of the pyramid intersect with the bottom in the land of computer science research, where new ideas are being developed but the software itself is often hacked together to the point of just barely working?

Not sure if this is a useful observation, or only an observation.

Re: Levels of aspiration

#16

Post by groby_b » Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 5:42 PM UTC

frankc wrote: post #14

Udo wrote: post #4

To help someone move up the hierarchies, they have to have an intrisic (sic) desire to do so. Arguments like “but it works” or “it gets the job done” are tell-tell signs of someone happy at the lowest level of the technical hierarchy and your cue to just quietly back out of the debate. For an article that claims we need software "in all shapes and sizes" the amount of smug superiority exhibited here is amazing. Yes,…

The irony of the whole thing is that it is usually the pragmatists and not the idealists who wind up "moving industry forward", because by definition, the pragmatists get things done. The world needs C not lisp.

And yet the ideas of Lisp are what's driving modern languages forward. The world needs both.

The world needs people actually getting relevant stuff done right now, and the world needs the dreamers who focus on Utopia. Ideally, both learn from each others' experiences, without declaring that really, they are the group the world really needs.

Re: Levels of aspiration

#17

Post by raganwald » Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 5:46 PM UTC

frankc wrote: post #14

Udo wrote: post #4

To help someone move up the hierarchies, they have to have an intrisic (sic) desire to do so. Arguments like “but it works” or “it gets the job done” are tell-tell signs of someone happy at the lowest level of the technical hierarchy and your cue to just quietly back out of the debate. For an article that claims we need software "in all shapes and sizes" the amount of smug superiority exhibited here is amazing. Yes,…

The irony of the whole thing is that it is usually the pragmatists and not the idealists who wind up "moving industry forward", because by definition, the pragmatists get things done. The world needs C not lisp.

I have great sympathy for your point that pragmatism has tremendous value. I disagree in a trifling way with statements like “The world needs C not Lisp,” it is obvious to me that the world needs both C and Lisp. Or it did, and both have contributed in various ways to progress, and C continues to be a useful tool.

The interesting thing is that insanely great progress requires operating at all levels of the hierarchy. Consider the oft-quoted maxim, “Real artists ship.” This does not suggest that there is no room for dreaming, but rather that the highest form of artistry is the application of pragmatism to manifesting our dreams.

Re: Levels of aspiration

#18

Post by nimblegorilla » Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 5:53 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #13

smacktoward wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find I get a lot less out of essays I read if I get sidetracked into making value judgments about the authors Similarly, I find I get a lot less out of essays when it seems that the authors are making value judgments about me.

Again you inject the authors into the discussion. Why don’t we pretend I have this warehouse full of monkeys tapping on typewriters. We walk by one of the monkeys and look at what it has written. Hmm, seems interesting. It could be all wrong, it could be useful. Why can’t we just just examine the words on the paper for what they are and see if they're useful to think about? If you’d rather not, you go your way and I…

I kind of agree with you, but if I was walking by a warehouse of typing monkeys I would by default assume all of their articles are not useful. 37 Signals seems like a successful company to me. That is why I think the articles they write might have useful content.

Re: Levels of aspiration

#19

Post by gfodor » Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 5:57 PM UTC

For mature developers the choices here are not about innate skill but about tradeoffs. This blog post makes the error of projecting what is a multi-dimensional problem onto a single dimension.

You can have a pretty abysmal code base with beautiful design on top and amazing UX and be rolling in piles of money, and be perfectly aware that the code sucks but made the decision that beautiful code was not the priority or competitive advantage of the business.

Re: Levels of aspiration

#20

Post by skrish » Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 5:58 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #4

To help someone move up the hierarchies, they have to have an intrisic (sic) desire to do so. Arguments like “but it works” or “it gets the job done” are tell-tell signs of someone happy at the lowest level of the technical hierarchy and your cue to just quietly back out of the debate. For an article that claims we need software "in all shapes and sizes" the amount of smug superiority exhibited here is amazing. Yes,…

Reading his response to a comment in his blog changes the context of his perceived smugness. Doesn't it? Here is what I am referring to:

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DHH 10 Jul 12 Kathy, that’s a great point. Also, this pyramid can be applied in finer resolution within your stack. For example, I’m perfectly content to be at the “Well engineered” level when it comes to my use of MySQL, but when it comes to Ruby and Rails, I want to be at “Moving industry forward”.

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