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Cybertruck's Many Recalls

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Re: Cybertruck's Many Recalls

#411

Post by egeozcan »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #395
lapcat wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a lot here about technical and legal definitions, but from the customer's perspective what they mostly care about is the inconvenience associated with a physical recall. No, customers care about the safety of their vehicles. If there wasn't a safety issue, then customers could safely ignore the recall notice and experience no inconvenience.

> No, customers care about the safety of their vehicles. Yes. But safety is a spectrum, and is denominated in inconvenience against perceived expected loss - perceived, because people round the loss down to 0 when they feel like it won't happen to them . See: how many people don't fasten their seat belts, or hold a phone in their hand while driving, despite both being highly dangerous to life, limb and wallet, and ag…

Some people do not care about safety so we should change the definition of what a recall is and blame an article for being deceptive?

You gave a bunch of examples of some people not caring about safety then generalized to everyone. You may be in a bubble, or you may not be, but you're presenting zero evidence to call the article deceptive.

Re: Cybertruck's Many Recalls

#412

Post by mkipper »

damon_c wrote: post #106
noapologies wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Are safety issues not "serious"?

The word recall sort of implies that the vehicle is recalled to the manufacturer. Calling a software update that happens in your garage at night and takes 20 minutes a “recall” definitely is worthy of quotes.

Focusing on the dictionary definition of the word "recall" seems pedantic.

Not all recalls are for big mechanical problems. I've received several recall notices for issues that just required the dealership to flash the ECU or some other controller with new firmware. Whether that update is flashed OTA or with a special dongle at the dealership doesn't really make a difference if you're looking at it from the perspective of vehicle safety/reliability/stability. The point is that a recall is a significant enough issue that the manufacturer _must_ notify their customers about it.

I agree that if you count _every_ OTA update as a recall, you can't really do an apples-to-apples comparison. The cost of pushing an OTA update is much lower than the cost of a recall, so Tesla probably pushes a bunch of minor OTA updates that other manufacturers wouldn't bother with. But it's a fair comparison if only some subset of OTA updates are counted as recalls (i.e. updates addressing a safety issue).

Re: Cybertruck's Many Recalls

#413

Post by imiric »

mrguyorama wrote: post #403
_puk wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it does. Think about how, even in software, knowing that a physical shipping of a product (CD / Blu-ray) can be updated from "day 1" has led to poor quality releases with last minute patches. The cost of having to physically recall / resend CDs back in the day meant that what went out had to work. The cost of sloppy software has now been externalised.

People say this a lot but there were in fact examples of software being released back before ubiquitous internet patching that were broken. For example, no copy of Space Station Silicon Valley for the N64 is completable because of a bug that prevents you from collecting the final plot device. I'd say it's definitely worse now, with nothing meaningful being on the disc you pay $70 being insane.

Like I said, there were some exceptions. But the current state is reversed: most games ship broken/incomplete at launch, and the exceptions are when a game is actually complete and relatively bug-free.

It's not a matter of not relying on patches or updates altogether. The issue is when companies use this as a crutch to offset their shoddy development practices. Or worse: scamming consumers into buying their broken/incomplete game, and then taking years to deliver a stable experience or what they advertised (No Man's Sky, Fallout 76, Cyberpunk 2077, etc.), shutting down (Redfall, The Day Before, etc.), or straight up taking the money and running. Consumers are lucky if they even get their money back. Thankfully most storefronts have decent refund policies, but that's not an excuse.

The saddest thing is that a lot of people either don't care, or end up forgetting about this if companies appear to work hard to ship updates, which is how they eventually gain their good will back. The reputations of studios like Hello Games, CDPR and even Bethesda are practically untarnished despite of their scams, which gives them the freedom to keep doing this.

Re: Cybertruck's Many Recalls

#414

Post by sulam »

gambiting wrote: post #330
brookst wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is AOSP running any of the critical systems that would make the car undrivable or unsafe if it crashed? Or just IVI stuff? If the former that is horrifying.

It's running the infotainment display(the one in the centre of the car) , but not the driver display. Fortunately I've never heard about the driver display crashing while driving, so at least Volvo had the good sense of making sure that is solid - but the infotainment display is known to crash frequently requiring a hard restart(you hold the button under the display for at least 10 seconds then the entire thing reboo…

Correct, the car can function without the infotainment system but you lose conveniences like climate control, the backup camera, and sometimes even audio, which is weird because you get no feedback from the turn signals. It’s not great but not an immediately pulling over kinda thing.

Re: Cybertruck's Many Recalls

#415

Post by sulam »

myrmidon wrote: post #209
graemep wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder whether OTA updates being possible encourages manufacturers to be sloppy with software quality. They know they can fix problems cheaply. If they had to physically update vehicles they would have a lot more incentive to make updates unnecessary.

As an embedded software developer: 100% yes. Having a cheap OTA option will always lead to more sloppiness in development; the problem is that this makes it possible and easy to delay "features" in general when software projects are behind schedule (instead of delaying everything), these delayed features/releaes alone are then additional surface for bugs/regressions to slip through testing. For the manufacturer this…

I would argue that often the car or other hardware being delayed is not an option and so you get rushed software anyway, that has to be dealer serviced. We’ve seen that a lot in cars now that they’ve started having non-trivial amounts of software that is expected to multi-task. I don’t even know how many networks your typical EV has, it’s usually at least 4 or 5.

Re: Cybertruck's Many Recalls

#416

Post by alkonaut »

lapcat wrote: post #331
alkonaut wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but tiny risk of catastrophic failure will be addressed by owners almost no matter how trivial. And it won't see as a relief by me that I managed to fix it before it spontaneously caught fire, I'll still see it as a frustrating failure by the manufacturer. Because I can both see it as a near-zero risk, and still do it with near 100% certainty. Especially if I don't know whether the window for fixing it easily/f…

> And it won't see as a relief by me that I managed to fix it before it spontaneously caught fire, I'll still see it as a frustrating failure by the manufacturer. In this respect, there's no difference between OTA updates and dealership repairs.

No, the frustration comes from taking time in my schedule. OTA are a stain on the safety record. Physicall recalls are a chore.

Re: Cybertruck's Many Recalls

#417

Post by imiric »

liontwist wrote: post #380
imiric wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Back in the day it was a major milestone for video game projects to "go gold". It meant that the rigorous QA process was passed, and that retail copies were ready to be manufactured. Since that involved significant costs and physical logistics, companies certainly didn't want major bugs shipped at this stage. There were some exceptions, but ultimately this led to much higher customer satisfaction. Removing t…

It’s also bad for preservation because the disc doesn’t actually have the playable game anymore.

Physical media is almost entirely dead, and will not exist in a few years anyway. So, yeah, the move to digital releases, pervasive DRM, and live service games make preservation difficult.

I hope industry heads realize that they're actively pushing consumers towards piracy. These days you often get a better experience with a pirated game than a legally bought one: it runs better without DRM and doesn't infect your system, you can play it offline, and no license change will take it away from you. At least GOG seems to be the only store giving you DRM-free and offline installers, but not all games are released on it.

Re: Cybertruck's Many Recalls

#418

Post by seaal »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #130
seaal wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Are you scared of Google? Where do you see options for wraps on the Cybertruck ordering page? https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck/design I don’t see anything on the Cybertruck accessory page either: https://shop.tesla.com/category/vehicle-accessories/cybertru...

https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-slashes-number-of-cyb...

I don't have a Tesla or care, but it seems limited.

Re: Cybertruck's Many Recalls

#419

Post by qwerpy »

coldpie wrote: post #401
liontwist wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not contributing the discussion and sounds like sour grapes (never owned a Tesla product btw).

Just poking fun :P You can't drop one hundred thousand dollars on one of the ugliest gimmick vehicles ever made and not expect at least a little bit of stick.

CT owners have to have thick skins when interacting online so I chose to take it as good-natured ribbing :)

It has been a legitimately awesome purchase for me so it’s pretty easy to be positive.

Re: Cybertruck's Many Recalls

#420

Post by [deleted] »

lapcat wrote: post #331
alkonaut wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but tiny risk of catastrophic failure will be addressed by owners almost no matter how trivial. And it won't see as a relief by me that I managed to fix it before it spontaneously caught fire, I'll still see it as a frustrating failure by the manufacturer. Because I can both see it as a near-zero risk, and still do it with near 100% certainty. Especially if I don't know whether the window for fixing it easily/f…

> And it won't see as a relief by me that I managed to fix it before it spontaneously caught fire, I'll still see it as a frustrating failure by the manufacturer. In this respect, there's no difference between OTA updates and dealership repairs.

[deleted]
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