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Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

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Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#31
post #28
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please elaborate on 'representational art' in this context?

In the context of Islam: art that depicts living things, especially humans.

From Wikipedia[0]:

"The Quran, the Islamic holy book, does not prohibit the depiction of human figures; it merely condemns idolatry. Interdictions of figurative representation are present in the hadith, among a dozen of the hadith recorded during the latter part of the period when they were being written down."

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam#:~:text=T....

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#32
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of Islam: art that depicts living things, especially humans.

From Wikipedia[0]: "The Quran, the Islamic holy book, does not prohibit the depiction of human figures; it merely condemns idolatry. Interdictions of figurative representation are present in the hadith, among a dozen of the hadith recorded during the latter part of the period when they were being written down." [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam#:~:text=T... .

In Sunni Islam, the Hadith is essentially a companion source to the Quran - in particular, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.

But I should have been more specific. I think Shia art has the same restrictions though - could be wrong.

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every Orthodox service I've been to we stood the entire time, though I never went on special holidays. My inner ex-Catholic wondered is it really church if I don't kneel and stand, kneel and stand, kneel and stand all through the service? My Ukrainian ex had a worship space in a corner. It didn't have any rugs but had hauntingly beautiful hand painted icons. Maybe rugs are more of a thing in the old countries?

Churches probably have some kind of theological explanation, but alternately kneeling, sitting, and standing is much better physiologically. Having a large and diverse group of people all stay in the same position for an extended period is very rough on their bodies, and some more than others. Periodically switching prevents injuries caused by maintaining too much static load for too long in any one place. Probably a…

it is all things but diverse

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_Middle_...

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#34
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam generally has a prohibiton on representational art. Most of the artistic skills were pulled into calligraphy and tesselations. It's why these show up in almost all Islamic artifacts.

Can you please elaborate on 'representational art' in this context?

[deleted]

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#35
post #32
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Wikipedia[0]: "The Quran, the Islamic holy book, does not prohibit the depiction of human figures; it merely condemns idolatry. Interdictions of figurative representation are present in the hadith, among a dozen of the hadith recorded during the latter part of the period when they were being written down." [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam#:~:text=T... .

In Sunni Islam, the Hadith is essentially a companion source to the Quran - in particular, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. But I should have been more specific. I think Shia art has the same restrictions though - could be wrong.

Islamic canon law (the Shariah) is derived from primary texts (the Quran and Hadith) and uses interpretive methodologies (like deductive analogy - Qiyas) to derive rulings that are not explicitly discussed in the primary source material. This gives some amount of openness and causes some differences of opinion resulting in multiple schools of thought.

Practicing Muslims rely on books and texts that systematize this knowledge and provide it in a practical form for daily use rather than go to the source material (which can be overwhelming if one wants to find, for example, the ruling on whether a certain action in a specific context is permissible or not). Most Muslim children, as part of their basic religious education, learn the basics of Islamic law and practice from such a book. That's usually enough to go through ones life.

The ruling on representational art is based on this kind of derivation. There are some exceptions (e.g. for educational, security etc. purposes) but they're generally narrowly circumscribed.

Sunni tradition relies primarily on the Quran and 6 books of Hadith (of which the two you've mentioned are the main ones). Shia tradition has a smaller Hadith corpus because of theological differences about the reliability of the chains of narration of the Hadith and hence the derived rulings are very different in some areas. I've generally seen Shia works of art where prophetic companions, angels etc. are pictured but non-realistically (unlike Christian iconography). Some of them blank out the faces but it's not a tradition I'm deeply familiar with so I don't know.

My theory is that the huge emphasis on calligraphy and tesselations in Islamic art is mainly because of this. We don't have (many) paintings and sculptures of religious figures like in the Christian traditions.

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#36
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know Orthodox Christians prostrated in their prayer much less use prayer rugs. Curious where this practice remains today.

Prostrations are part of every Orthodox tradition, to my knowledge. You will even see people making prostrations publicly in church especially during Great Lent, but you will generally not see people doing it at a Sunday liturgy since (in most traditions) prostrations are forbidden on Sundays.

There are variances in the traditions also here. In Russian tradition all the people in the Church do prostration during the eucharist prayers where wine and old are turned into Communion, and also before they partake the Communion. But in Greek tradition they don't do any prostrations during the liturgy. Prostrations aren't forbidden on Sundays but if you partake Eucharist you are not allowed to do prostration during that day.

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#37

One thing I’ve been curious about for a long time is if the use of prayer rugs in the Orthodox Churches predates Islam or was picked up by Christians from their Muslim neighbors.

I didn't know Orthodox Christians prostrated in their prayer much less use prayer rugs. Curious where this practice remains today.

Especially monks and nuns do prostrations as part of their prayer rule. Some do hunderds, some do even thousands prostrations during their prayers. We use prayer rope when recitating Jesus Prayer[1]. Prayer rope helps count the prayers but also it gives your hands something to do while praying, so it's easier to focus. I usually have one in my pocket and I roll it in my hands secretly while in meetings or sometimes even during typing code. I don't really pray then but it reminds me of the spiritual reality and that my boring Teams-meetings and stupid Jira-tickets aren't the purpose of my life ;)

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Prayer

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#38
post #32
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Wikipedia[0]: "The Quran, the Islamic holy book, does not prohibit the depiction of human figures; it merely condemns idolatry. Interdictions of figurative representation are present in the hadith, among a dozen of the hadith recorded during the latter part of the period when they were being written down." [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam#:~:text=T... .

In Sunni Islam, the Hadith is essentially a companion source to the Quran - in particular, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. But I should have been more specific. I think Shia art has the same restrictions though - could be wrong.

Only the Quran is guaranteed to be unchanged (but the interpretations and translations are not so guaranteed), the Hadiths are not.

The proper perspective is that if the Hadith and Quran are in conflict, the Quran is the authoratative source.

From our Sufi perspective, the Hadiths are a lot of game of telephone.

And if the Quran is difficult to apply, remember that compassion is the entire purpose of all God's religions.

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#39
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That whole bundle of traditions - prayer times, prayer directions, prayer accessories, etc predates Islam if for no other reason than that Islam is comparatively new. But the cross-pollination could have easily happened more than once and in both directions.

Even Muslims do not claim their religion is completely novel. The rituals may differ, but the creed preached by Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him) is the same preached by Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, John, Jesus, and countless other prophets (peace be upon them all): worship The One True God (Allah, Yahweh) with no partners. As far as prayer rugs and other acce…

It's all the Hanif Religion of Abraham, whose texts have been lost to time.

Compassion is the only purpose of all God's religions, and is the ultimate arbiter of our life's chosen actions.

Re: Prayer, Placement, and Absolution: Peter Hristoff on Islamic Prayer Rugs (2015)

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every Orthodox service I've been to we stood the entire time, though I never went on special holidays. My inner ex-Catholic wondered is it really church if I don't kneel and stand, kneel and stand, kneel and stand all through the service? My Ukrainian ex had a worship space in a corner. It didn't have any rugs but had hauntingly beautiful hand painted icons. Maybe rugs are more of a thing in the old countries?

Churches probably have some kind of theological explanation, but alternately kneeling, sitting, and standing is much better physiologically. Having a large and diverse group of people all stay in the same position for an extended period is very rough on their bodies, and some more than others. Periodically switching prevents injuries caused by maintaining too much static load for too long in any one place. Probably a…

Loving God is not for God's benefit, but for ours. Our emanating love towards our Creator helps us emanate compassion for all our fellow human beings. It is the Greatest Command(ment), and the sole purpose of religion.

As such -- as you say -- changing positions is good for our body which helps us to be more physically comfortable in this magnificent machine. Happiness is God's desire for us, but It has given us the absolutely free will to choose happiness or its opposites. A prayerful life is for personal and societal growth towards selfless compassion for all others, and away from selfish callous disregard for others.

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