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Charset="WTF-8"

wtf-8.xn--stpie-k0a81a.com

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Re: Charset="WTF-8"

#371

Post by soco »

Muromec wrote: post #369
hobs wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it allows an exact representation of your name, it doesn't do anything to your life. If you dont like your name, either change it or go complain to your parents. They might tell you that you cultural reference point is more important than some person being able to read your name off of a computer screen. If you want to store a phonetic name for the destination speaker that's not a bad idea, but a name is a name i…

But it does affect my life in a way you refuse to understand. That's the problem -- there isn't a true canonical representation of a name (any name really) that fits all practical purposes. Storing a bag of bytes to display back to user is the easiest of practical purposes and suggesting the practice that solve that is worse than rejecting Stępień, it's refusal to understand complexities, that leads to eventually doi…

Then where is the problem? If the support can read Polish they will pronounce your name properly, if they're from India they will mess it up, why should we have different expectations? Nobody will identify you by name anyway, they will ask how to call you (chatbots do this already) and then use for proper identification all kind of ids and pins and whatnot. So we are talking here about a complexity that nobody actually needs, not even you. So let the name be saved and displayed in the nice native way, and you as programmer make sure you don't go Bobby Tables with the strings.

Re: Charset="WTF-8"

#372

Post by [deleted] »

nedt wrote: post #239
KPGv2 wrote: post #39

It seems ridiculous to apply form validation to a name, given the complexity of charsets involved. I don't even validate email addresses. I remember [this]( https://www.netmeister.org/blog/email.html ) wonderful explainer of why your email validation regex is wrong.

In HTML if you use you basically get a regex validation. While it not fully follows the RFC it's a good middle ground. And it gives you an email that you can use on the internet (RFC obviously has some cases that are outside of this scope). That's why I tend to prefer what's defined in the standard: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/input.html#email-stat...

[deleted]

Re: Charset="WTF-8"

#373

Post by Muromec »

throwaway290 wrote: post #349
Muromec wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subset is mostly defined by the jurisdiction you operate in, which usually defines a process to map names from one subset to another and is also in the business of keeping the log of said operation. The problem is not operating in a subset, but defining it wrong and not being aware there are multiple of those. If different parts of your system operate in different jurisdictions (or interface which other systems t…

HN does not accept emoji because of jurisdiction huh?

That depends on what political philosophy you follow -- they either do, or are wrong and mean.

Re: Charset="WTF-8"

#374

Post by jandrese »

chungy wrote: post #113
jandrese wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if your customer is the artist formerly known as Prince or even X Æ A-12 Musk?

Prince: "Get over yourself and just use your given name." (Shockingly, his given name actually is Prince; I first thought it was only a stage name) Musk: Tell Elon to get over his narcissism enough to not use his children as his own vanity projects. This isn't just an Elon problem, many people treat children as vanity projects to fuel their own narcissism. That's not what children are for. Give him a proper name. (an…

Sure it is just text, but the context is someone who wrote a isValidHumanName() function.

Re: Charset="WTF-8"

#375

Post by Izkata »

hnuser123456 wrote: post #220
wruza wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copy this󠀠󠀼󠀼󠀼󠀠󠁉󠁳󠀠󠁴󠁨󠁩󠁳󠀠󠁮󠁥󠁣󠁥󠁳󠁳󠁡󠁲󠁹󠀠󠁴󠁯󠀠󠁣󠁯󠁲󠁲󠁥󠁣󠁴󠁬󠁹󠀠󠁲󠁥󠁰󠁲󠁥󠁳󠁥󠁮󠁴󠀠󠁨󠁵󠁭󠁡󠁮󠀠󠁬󠁡󠁮󠁧󠁵󠁡󠁧󠁥󠀿󠀠󠀾󠀾󠀾 sentence into this site and click Decode. (YMMW) https://embracethered.com/blog/ascii-smuggler.html

Wow. Did not expect you can just hide arbitrary data inside totally normal looking strings like that. If I select up to "Copy thi" and decode, there's no hidden string, but just holding shift+right arrow to select just "one more character", the "s" in "this", the hidden string comes along.

Based on vim's word wrapping (which shows blank spaces instead of completely hiding it), they're being rendered at the end of the line. So if that is accurate it kind of makes sense that for UI-based interactions to be a one-character offset.

Re: Charset="WTF-8"

#376

Post by arghwhat »

Muromec wrote: post #362
arghwhat wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suppose you have a unicode blob of my name in your database and there is a problem and you need to call me and say hi. Would your customer representative be able to pronounce my name somewhat correctly? You cannot pronounce the name regardless of whether it is written in ASCII. Pronouncing a name requires at the very least knowledge of the language it originated in, and attempts at reading it with an English pronun…

>You must store and operate on the person's name as is. Requiring a name modified, or modifying it automatically, is unacceptable But this is simply not true in practice and at times it's just plain wrong in theory too. The in practice part is trivially discoverable in the real world. As to in theory -- I do in fact want a properly functioning service to use my name in a vocative case (which requires modifying it aut…

Sure, there are sites that mistreat names in ways you describe, but that does not make it correct.

> I do in fact want a properly functioning service to use my name in a vocative case. ... I also don't want to know to specify the correct version myself, as it's trivially derivable through established rules of the languages.

There would be nothing to discuss if this was trivial.

> Not doing that is plainly grammatically wrong and borderline impolite.

Do you know what's more than borderline impolite? Getting someone's name wrong, or even claiming that their legal name is invalid and thereby making it impossible for them to sign up.

If getting a name right and using a grammatical form are mutually exclusive, there is no argument to be had about which to prioritize.

Re: Charset="WTF-8"

#377

Post by pzduniak »

tomthe wrote: post #342
ivanjermakov wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, there are no big rivers in Łódź (anymore)

anymore??

Sorry, I was thirsty.

There were no "big" rivers, ever. More like springs. We have lots of subterranean water, so out of the 18 rivers we have in the city, 16 have their sources here [0]. They were used to power mills in the 19-20th century during the industrialization. Many of the rivers that used to go through the city center flow underground.

I live close to the river Olechówka [1], which flows into a regulated reservoir that used to feed a mill - so the area is called Młynek, "Little Mill" :)

[0] https://podwodnalodz.blogspot.com/2013/09/o-wodzie-po-ktorej... [1] https://i.imgur.com/SIp8CxN.jpeg

Re: Charset="WTF-8"

#378

Post by Muromec »

soco wrote: post #371
Muromec wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it does affect my life in a way you refuse to understand. That's the problem -- there isn't a true canonical representation of a name (any name really) that fits all practical purposes. Storing a bag of bytes to display back to user is the easiest of practical purposes and suggesting the practice that solve that is worse than rejecting Stępień, it's refusal to understand complexities, that leads to eventually doi…

Then where is the problem? If the support can read Polish they will pronounce your name properly, if they're from India they will mess it up, why should we have different expectations? Nobody will identify you by name anyway, they will ask how to call you (chatbots do this already) and then use for proper identification all kind of ids and pins and whatnot. So we are talking here about a complexity that nobody actual…

>if they're from India they will mess it up

Or not able to read at all.

>Then where is the problem?

Since you don't indicate for what purpose my name is stored, which may actually be display only, any of the following can happen:

A name as entered in your system is compared to a name entered in a different system or when you interface (maybe indirectly and unknowingly) with a system using different constrains or a different script, maybe imposed by their jurisdiction. As a result, the intended operation does not come through.

This may happen in the indirect way and invisible to you -- e.g. you produce an artifact, say and invoice or issue a payment card using $script a, which I will only later figure out I can't use, because it's expected to be in $script b, or even worse be in $script a presumed to match $script b they have on record. One of the non-obvious ways it can fail, is when you try to determine whether two names in the same script are actually the same to infer family relationship or something other that you should not do anyway.

It may happen within your system in a way your CSR will deny is possible as well.

That's on a more severe side, which means I will not try to use the name in any rendering that doesn't match MRZ of my identity document. Which was probably the opposite of what you intended allowing arbitrary bag of bytes to be entered. No, that is not made up problem, because I'm bored, it's a thing.

On a less sever side, not understanding names is a failure in i18n department, because you can't support my language properly without understanding how my name should be changed when you address me, when you simply show it near user icon and when you describe relations between me and objects and people. If you can't do proper i18n and a different provider can, you may lose me as a customer, because your attitude is presumed to be "everyone can just use ASCII and English". Yes, people exist that actually get it right because they put an effort in this human aspect.

On a mildly annoying, but inconsequential side people also have a habit of trying to infer gender based on names despite having gender clearly marked in their system.

Re: Charset="WTF-8"

#379

Post by golergka »

crazygringo wrote: post #68
golergka wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

דויד Smith (concatenated) will have an LTR control character in the middle

Oh that's interesting. Is that a thing? I've never known of anyone whose legal name used two alphabets that didn't have any overlap in letters at all -- two completely different scripts. Would a birth certificate allow that? Wouldn't you be expected to transliterate one of them?

I haven't known anyone like that either, but I can imagine how the same person would have name in Hebrew in some Israeli IT system and name in English somewhere else and then have a third system to unexpectedly combine them in some weird way.

Re: Charset="WTF-8"

#380

Post by kristopolous »

simonh wrote: post #317
kristopolous wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fonts are already in there and proto-glyphs are too as generalized dicritics. There's also a large variety of generic shapes, lines, arrows, circles and boxes in both filled and unfilled varieties. Lines even have different weights. The absurdity of a custom alphabet can already be partially actualized. Formalism is merely the final step This conversation was had 20 years ago and your (and my) position lost. Might as…

Unicode does not specify any fonts, though many fonts are defined to be consistent with the Unicode standard, nevertheless they are emphatically not part of Unicode. How symbols including diacritics are drawn and displayed is not a concern for Unicode, different fonts can interpret 'filled circle' or the weight of a glyph as they like, just as with emoji. By convention they generally adopt common representations but…

You can say things like the different "styles" that exploit Unicode on a myriad of websites such as https://qaz.wtf/u/convert.cgi?text=Hello are not technically "fonts" but it's a distinction without a meaningful difference. You have script, fraktur, bold, monospace, italic...
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