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How the Ivy League Broke America

theatlantic.com

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Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#51

Post by lordnacho »

Woeps wrote: post #43
lordnacho wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's sad about it is that it's a lawyer. Now I don't mean to poop on lawyers, but the kind of recruiter we are talking about sells a very specific narrative of success, which is that if you're a top kid in school, your natural path is law/consulting/finance. I went to a famous institution, and there were loads of kids who bought into this. If you don't know quite what you want to do, it is very easy to fall into th…

It's the same here in the Netherlands, I didn't go to a elite school but I am from a place where most people do. And it's just bonkers to me this rat-race that they have been placed in because that's the only way to "happiness"/success ... Also question, is consulting considered an elite job? My impression is that even consulting for the big 4* is nothing special. * are they they same everywhere? : Deloitte, EY, KPMG…

The Big 4 are indeed the same everywhere. I'd say most people who are near the treadmill would consider Big4 as prestigious, sure.

But there are multiple levels of prestige in consulting. The mentioned firms, and then McKinsey/Bain/Boston, which are above that level in the hierarchy.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#52

Post by _1tem »

Any educational “system” strongly selects for conformity. A student can’t question the system or they’ll be sidelined early on and failed for giving the “wrong” answer. Geniuses are almost by definition weirdos who question the status quo. Yet most would get eliminated by the current educational system and it’s by-product of elites. That’s why true geniuses like Elon Musk somewhat ironically choose to rally the uneducated, not because he is intellectually aligned with them, but only because they allow much greater freedom to not conform. The truly intelligent shun intelligentsia.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#53

Post by corimaith »

anon291 wrote: post #12

> And yet it’s not obvious that we have produced either a better leadership class or a healthier relationship between our society and its elites Part of the problem is as follows and I see it so often in politics. We have an excellent technocratic leadership class. But being a technocratic leader does not make you a great leader of people, and frankly -- given the way many technocratic fields in the humanities are ta…

Perhaps a more crude label of what you ascribing to technocrats is the term "Soulless".

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#54

Post by corimaith »

The biggest problem I feel with "meritocracy" is that we're incurring huge costs on society all to pick up the best and brightest, but with very little returns in terms of societal benefits.

I don't care about the guy who is higher up in the ladder than me, what I care about is the guy who builds more ladders, shorter ladders, elevators or such. And I think that most of our elites don't or can't do that.

The birthrate crisis, the competition crisis, the housing crisis, etc, I don't think these people have the capability to solve them.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#55

Post by gadders »

_1tem wrote: post #50
gadders wrote: post #32

I think if people want to add extra evaluations on top of IQ, then fair enough, but they need to be of high quality and as repeatable as IQ tests, otherwise it will be a case of pseudo-science and ideological capture.

Perhaps the very idea of having standardized evaluations needs to be questioned. Anything that can be measured will be gamed. Nothing “repeatable” can capture the whole value of a human being.

The aim is not to measure the value of an individual, though. A garbage collector is just as valuable as a human being as a brain surgeon.

This is about finding a way to identify people who will benefit from the best education

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#56

Post by leovingi »

soco wrote: post #42
leovingi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it gives the kids the impression that school is super important >We must have left some poor but capable kids in the wrong school. Both of those things cannot be true at the same time. Either school is important, in which case both the parents pushing their children and the children pushing themselves are doing the right thing to improve their chances of later success, or it is NOT important, in which case it doesn'…

Let me translate it in privileged language: when the poor are, like their name suggests, poor, they cannot afford the tutors and the time for pushing their capable kids through the good school. All while recognizing the shitiness of their situation.

So which argument are we actually discussing here? Because in the OPs post and in yours there are two different arguments that, for whatever reason, are bundled together and used as a motte and bailey.

Argument #1: Certain kids are privileged enough to be able to afford tutoring and get into good schools and this is unfair to the poor kids

Argument #2: Certain kids are being pushed UNNECESSARILY by their parents to participate in a rat race when their time would be better suited to doing something else

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#57

Post by Foreignborn »

bilbo0s wrote: post #46
anon291 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I make a lot of memes, so I'm not sure I agree with your first statement haha. I think you'd be surprised at the educational backgrounds of the people that actually make the memes (vs the ones just spreading them). I think my basic thesis is that, if you come from a normal background, and go through these institutions, this is a major selection factor for some level of charisma. You understand the game and you u…

I'm not really talking about the charming. I mean, if I'm being honest, the majority of people at places like Harvard have the ability to charm. What I'm going to say is illustration rather than arrogance, but charm and intelligence are just table stakes at places like Yale and Harvard. Don't misunderstand me, there are awkward people at elite schools. But you'd be surprised how many are able to out "charm" the avera…

I feel like I’m missing something, forgive me.

I’ve read your entire thread, and I don’t mean this negatively… but I can’t tell if you’re larping.

Take this example: “[They learn] piano as easily as molecular engineering”

Pretty much anyone with a career will have one or more other interests, like playing an instrument. And yes, at elite levels. Or sports, I know multiple olympians… but like… they’re quite normal. It’s obviously impressive, sure, but… what you’re saying doesn’t reflect my experience so I feel like I’m missing something!

I have never met any ivy league elite, actor, scientist, musician or anyone else that felt like they were super human.

The only ones who felt unworldly were billionaires because they could hire so many people to work on their projects in parallel.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#58

Post by ctchocula »

anon291 wrote: post #30
abyssin wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you had to make a guess about these behavioral models, what would it be?

Not the one you responded to, but the guy above him. I would say a few things: 1. Less social anxiety / confidence -- simply realizing that the worst thing that happens is you fail. It does help to have daddy's money for this though. 2. More calculating -- One trait I absolutely noticed in all these people was that they had planned out their entire life. This did not mean the plan always happened as expected, but the…

Reminds me of "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people".

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#59

Post by leovingi »

lordnacho wrote: post #48
leovingi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it gives the kids the impression that school is super important >We must have left some poor but capable kids in the wrong school. Both of those things cannot be true at the same time. Either school is important, in which case both the parents pushing their children and the children pushing themselves are doing the right thing to improve their chances of later success, or it is NOT important, in which case it doesn'…

> Both of those things cannot be true at the same time. Either school is important, in which case both the parents pushing their children and the children pushing themselves are doing the right thing to improve their chances of later success, or it is NOT important, in which case it doesn't matter anyway which school the other children end up in. Trying to get a less academic kid into grammar school isn't going to he…

Thank you for the clarification. Difficult to argue about this without the context, but even with it, there are so many unique and specific cases that it can essentially be brought down to the individual level.

Some children can be pushed way too hard, some can be pushed not enough and certainly some parents can take their own personal ambitions way too far, as it sounds like in the case you are describing.

Unfortunately, at the end of the day, I don't know of any system anywhere in the world that hasn't eventually devolved into a status chase, for better or worse.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#60

Post by bilbo0s »

Foreignborn wrote: post #57
bilbo0s wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really talking about the charming. I mean, if I'm being honest, the majority of people at places like Harvard have the ability to charm. What I'm going to say is illustration rather than arrogance, but charm and intelligence are just table stakes at places like Yale and Harvard. Don't misunderstand me, there are awkward people at elite schools. But you'd be surprised how many are able to out "charm" the avera…

I feel like I’m missing something, forgive me. I’ve read your entire thread, and I don’t mean this negatively… but I can’t tell if you’re larping. Take this example: “[They learn] piano as easily as molecular engineering” Pretty much anyone with a career will have one or more other interests, like playing an instrument. And yes, at elite levels. Or sports, I know multiple olympians… but like… they’re quite normal. It…

I didn’t say they were super human. Nothing human, is super human. They, themselves, most of all, see nothing abnormal in their abilities. I said they are different. They think differently. They learn differently.

Maybe an illustration with the benefit of hindsight. There were many renaissance men and women, but Leonardo was a bit different. That takes nothing away from anyone else, but the works of Leonardo are a bit different.

So what I’m saying, is that at MIT, most people are not Leonardo. But when you come across one, you know. Whether they make history with their gifts, is up to their own inclination.

This doesn’t mean everyone else at elite schools are any less special. But it does mean those individuals are operating at a level that many of us just don’t.

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