How the Ivy League Broke America • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#31

Post by anon291 » Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 9:13 AM UTC

Mordisquitos wrote: post #27

anon291 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly though, I don't think he's wrong. As someone who -- in my view -- squeaked by into an elite school (probably of the second rank as described in the article) despite being raised in a 'natural growth' environment, I think some people are truly at a different level of efficacy and I'm not sure what people are going to do about it. They show sustained ability to dominate fields. Yes, I'm sure this is cultural,…

In your second paragraph you're essentially pointing towards what social & developmental psychologist Carol Dweck [0] describes as the 'Growth Mindset' vs 'Fixed Mindset' modes of thinking. To be fair, there is some controversy as to the validity of Dweck's model. However, you may find it interesting, even at the risk of falling into confirmation bias (given that you appear to be primed to agree with it). I myself ha…

> To be fair, there is some controversy as to the validity of Dweck's model. However, you may find it interesting, even at the risk of falling into confirmation bias (given that you appear to be primed to agree with it)

I've heard about the idea of the 'growth mindset', and indeed my prior today would very much be on that, but by my upbringing I didn't even know that existed.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#32

Post by gadders » Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 9:22 AM UTC

I think if people want to add extra evaluations on top of IQ, then fair enough, but they need to be of high quality and as repeatable as IQ tests, otherwise it will be a case of pseudo-science and ideological capture.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#33

Post by watwut » Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 9:24 AM UTC

leovingi wrote: post #29

lordnacho wrote: post #26

Long essay, but I agree with a lot of what's said. I think a lot of quality time is wasted due to the rat race starting in early childhood. I live in a bit of a bubble in the commuter belt around London (ie not the US), but I observe some of the same obsessions here as well. In particular, I started to notice that my kid's friends suddenly had a lot less time for playdates in the year or two leading up to the 11-plus…

>it gives the kids the impression that school is super important >We must have left some poor but capable kids in the wrong school. Both of those things cannot be true at the same time. Either school is important, in which case both the parents pushing their children and the children pushing themselves are doing the right thing to improve their chances of later success, or it is NOT important, in which case it doesn'…

It 100% makes sense for a parent to not want their own kid to be the "poor but capable kid" who stayed in "the wrong school".

Especially since the kid who was in "the wrong school" will be blamed for "being lazy" or "less capable" when they don't perform as well as equally capable and hardworking peers in the "right school".

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#34

Post by gsf_emergency » Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 9:24 AM UTC

Hilift wrote: post #28

Something missing is deindustrialization following WW2. The US northeast (where "Ivy League" schools are located) shifted a huge amount of industry to other parts of the country, where factories had been established during the war. A few years later, the south had more electoral votes than the northeast and midwest. The votes determine leaders, not educational institutions. Look at the electoral votes from 1956: NY:…

NYers are also still relocating to FL (& less prominently, to TX), according to VizCap

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-the-top-5-states-ame...

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#35

Post by watwut » Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 9:28 AM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #22

watwut wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are surprised over Trump, because of what it applies about conservative peoples hypocrisy. Conservativism is typically approached with massive amount of naivety and undeserved trust. They lie, they complain about things they don't mind, then they state their plans out loud and pundit class is still "they cant be as bad as they say". Trump and the people he is choosing winning three times clearly show who these…

> People are surprised over Trump, because of what it applies[do you mean implies?] about conservative peoples hypocrisy. Technocrats talk about hypocrits. Lovers of the humanities talk about people. People don't operate on principles. They operate on human emotion, which is a very real force. It is no less real than facts, figure, logic, or rationality. Trump's shooting, his McDonald's stunt, his garbage vest/truck,…

Sure, but I read and listened A LOT about principles from christians, conservatives and republicans. And they mock everybody elses emotions, except their own which are super important.

Yes emotions are real force. I am glad we are admiting it, because god, the conservatives LOVE to pretend they are being rational when they are ... not.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#36

Post by keiferski » Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 9:32 AM UTC

I think this is fundamentally about the obsession with meritocracy, and not just the Ivy League. The Ivy League is merely the "best" system that subsequently became the obvious choice for a meritocratic filtering process.

Which means that this issue will arise in any social structure that is attempting to optimize for merit. There have been many books critiquing this idea, but one that is both old and has stuck in my mind is from T. S. Eliot's Notes Towards a Definition of Culture. His basic point is that in a hyper competitive society driven by tests, evaluations, etc., basically no one is incentivized to preserve cultural practices – unless they somehow help one succeed in the new meritocracy. This functionally is a defense of the aristocracy, or of entrenched power that doesn't need to "earn" its wealth by competing. I'm not sure how much I agree with Eliot, but I think this is a pretty compelling point that, a hundred years later, seems quite obviously to have been accurate, if we look at the loss of knowledge traditional art forms.

The problem with my comment here, though, is that is assumes the Ivy Leagues are now, currently meritocratic. It seems pretty obvious to me that they aren't - which makes this an even more complex situation.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#37

Post by creesch » Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 9:32 AM UTC

leovingi wrote: post #29

lordnacho wrote: post #26

Long essay, but I agree with a lot of what's said. I think a lot of quality time is wasted due to the rat race starting in early childhood. I live in a bit of a bubble in the commuter belt around London (ie not the US), but I observe some of the same obsessions here as well. In particular, I started to notice that my kid's friends suddenly had a lot less time for playdates in the year or two leading up to the 11-plus…

>it gives the kids the impression that school is super important >We must have left some poor but capable kids in the wrong school. Both of those things cannot be true at the same time. Either school is important, in which case both the parents pushing their children and the children pushing themselves are doing the right thing to improve their chances of later success, or it is NOT important, in which case it doesn'…

Or, things are not as black and white and both are true in a sense. School is important, up to a certain point. I admit, this highly depends on the country and schooling system, and I have too little insight in how hiring works in the US. But in many cases that I am familiar with for the fast majority of people to have a pretty decent career you need a degree, not the most prestigious degree just the right type of degree where the sort of school you got it is less important.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#38

Post by anon291 » Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 9:33 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #35

anon291 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are surprised over Trump, because of what it applies[do you mean implies?] about conservative peoples hypocrisy. Technocrats talk about hypocrits. Lovers of the humanities talk about people. People don't operate on principles. They operate on human emotion, which is a very real force. It is no less real than facts, figure, logic, or rationality. Trump's shooting, his McDonald's stunt, his garbage vest/truck,…

Sure, but I read and listened A LOT about principles from christians, conservatives and republicans. And they mock everybody elses emotions, except their own which are super important. Yes emotions are real force. I am glad we are admiting it, because god, the conservatives LOVE to pretend they are being rational when they are ... not.

Did you have something constructive you wanted to talk about either about what I wrote or the article, or did you just want to have your say on christians, conservatives, and republicans? If the former, I'm happy to engage. If the latter, I'll just let your comment stand on its demerits.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#39

Post by keiferski » Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 9:37 AM UTC

leovingi wrote: post #29

lordnacho wrote: post #26

Long essay, but I agree with a lot of what's said. I think a lot of quality time is wasted due to the rat race starting in early childhood. I live in a bit of a bubble in the commuter belt around London (ie not the US), but I observe some of the same obsessions here as well. In particular, I started to notice that my kid's friends suddenly had a lot less time for playdates in the year or two leading up to the 11-plus…

>it gives the kids the impression that school is super important >We must have left some poor but capable kids in the wrong school. Both of those things cannot be true at the same time. Either school is important, in which case both the parents pushing their children and the children pushing themselves are doing the right thing to improve their chances of later success, or it is NOT important, in which case it doesn'…

Real life is not an either-or logic problem. School can both be important and not all-consumingly important.

Re: How the Ivy League Broke America

#40

Post by pizza234 » Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 9:41 AM UTC

leovingi wrote: post #29

lordnacho wrote: post #26

Long essay, but I agree with a lot of what's said. I think a lot of quality time is wasted due to the rat race starting in early childhood. I live in a bit of a bubble in the commuter belt around London (ie not the US), but I observe some of the same obsessions here as well. In particular, I started to notice that my kid's friends suddenly had a lot less time for playdates in the year or two leading up to the 11-plus…

>it gives the kids the impression that school is super important >We must have left some poor but capable kids in the wrong school. Both of those things cannot be true at the same time. Either school is important, in which case both the parents pushing their children and the children pushing themselves are doing the right thing to improve their chances of later success, or it is NOT important, in which case it doesn'…

> Either school is important, in which case both the parents pushing their children and the children pushing themselves are doing the right thing to improve their chances of later success

There's a difference between considering something important versus an utmost priority. The parent's criticism refers to the latter, which is also typical in certain cultures (here, in the context of USA).

I've had direct experience with middle-class schools and indirect experience with an upper-class one, and the issues with the latter are very tangible. The most horrific cases involve parents of students who are not capable enough (in the given context) and will do everything in the book to ensure their children succeed, at the expense of both the children themselves and the whole system. Then, of course, if one considers study/career the one and only priority, emotional and relational needs are seen as a hindrance, creating successful but emotionally damaged adults.

Ultimately, this can be summarized with the Mexican fisherman story, I guess (which omits that the businessman is a cocaine addict, cheats on his wife, and has never spent time with his children /s).