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The size of BYD's factory

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Re: The size of BYD's factory

#291

Post by XorNot »

Dalewyn wrote: post #218
hackernewds wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China scaling and efficiency is really something else. it seems they've latched on to something that works better than even democracy and capitalism

[flagged]

No, it's when an authoritarian government wants something they'll get it. And by get it I mean "they'll take your house, ignore any local environment concerns and possibly just demolish entire villages and generational livelihoods".

Everyone seems to have some "oh how great it is they just get things done" as though they haven't diligently turned up to complain about some development application of the local council.

Yeah, sunshine and rainbows I suppose provided you're thousands of miles away.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#292

Post by skhr0680 »

tsudounym wrote: post #258
throwawaymaths wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but Japan has long had a cultural obsession with delivering high quality products. I don't know if China ever did, but if it did, much of it was wiped out during cultural revolution and replaced with succeed at all costs. And there is a difference between success and excellence. For example there have been zero bullet train fatalities in its entire history, and several Chinese HSR fatal accidents already. For po…

Japanese-American here. This is revisionism. Japan was absolutely known for low quality products in the past. Probably the best "pop-culture" reference to this is "Back to the Future" when Marty travels back in time to 1955 and shows Doc a Made in Japan product (camera, I think?) Doc says its junk because its Made in Japan, but Marty sees it as high quality because its from the 80s.

Japanese cameras became popular with pros during the Korean War precisely because they used high-quality materials and had great quality control. A good Leica was still better at the time, but you were much more likely to get a good Nikon.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#293

Post by XorNot »

aurareturn wrote: post #288
_carbyau_ wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly it comes down to "Show me the money." I vote for change, but I don't have the money to buy electric. Even running costs don't make the difference when it comes to multiple tens of thousands of dollars in purchase price. I'd love to "care for our environment by buying an electric car". I can't afford to.

Affordable EVs are a solved problem. China has solved it. The world responded by putting up tariffs.

I already own a car. An affordable EV is a thing I'll buy in like 15 more years when my already 20 year old Toyota finally dies maybe.

If I bought it sooner, then my car would just go into the second hand market and do the same thing.

"Affordable" isn't changing anything: I don't need another car, and I'm not going to prematurely crush mine into a cube.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#294

Post by XorNot »

zie wrote: post #280
Dalewyn wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tariffs are a surcharge on imports added and demanded by the government, paid by the people or entities importing. As an example, if an American buys a Chinese coffee maker priced at $100 and there is a 50% tariff, there is a $50 tariff that is paid by the importing American to the American government. The total cost to the importing American is $150. Now, if this price is equal to or higher than an American coffee m…

Right, the coffee maker company in China has some options: * Figures out how to make it even cheaper (unlikely) * Figure out how to avoid the tariff legally: Maybe move the manufacture or assembly to Mexico for the US market. * Claim the product is something else, just enough to avoid the tariff(i.e. claim it's a tea maker, not a coffee maker) * Stop selling in the US since they won't get any sales * etc. The middle…

Also the other issue: the first thing the American company does is ensure it sells coffee-makers for $149 and not a penny less.

In fact depending on your tarriff regime, this can incentivize a bunch industries to actually raise prices if the new import cost is higher then they would currently sell at.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#295

Post by est »

Animats wrote: post #137
bdangubic wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

west can compete. unlike byd’s, which get bricked all the time without infrastructure to maintain and repair them, west (and japan even more so) build cars that last. this is china we are talking about, the last thing I want is a car made by them… :)

There were many terrible electric cars out of China for years. Every province had its own little EV manufacturers. China's car industry is less concentrated than the US, but the big players are winning. BYD is only the 9th largest carmaker in China. SAIC, Changan, and Geeley are the top 3. SAIC and Changan are state-owned, but Geeley is private, as is BYD. SAIC makes about 5 million vehicles a year. General Motors, o…

> BYD is only the 9th largest carmaker in China. SAIC, Changan, and Geeley are the top 3

Protip: when you calc Chinese numbers, be sure to lookup the latest data. 1 year or 2 means landslide difference.

SAIC sales dropped > 11% and profit down by 27% in the first two quaters 2024. Think about that for a second.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#296

Post by XorNot »

p2detar wrote: post #109
brcmthrowaway wrote: post #83

Can the west compete?

Define "the west". There was an interesting article here in HN the other day [0] "Almost 10% of South Korea's Workforce Is Now a Robot". China now surpasses all the west-aligned nations in terms of total industrial robots [1], however the west still has the upper-hand in terms of robot to population density ratio. I think it is a matter of strategy and it seems China's strategy is innovation, science and productivity…

> China's strategy is innovation, science and productivity. We on the west seem to like consumption before everything else and IMHO we are doing it wrong.

What is this even supposed to mean? You can't have productivity without consumption - who are you producing things for? Well, consumers - duh.

China is the beneficiary of having relatively low marginal costs, but it's worth noting that's been changing and production has been moving out of China and into other cheaper regions - i.e. Vietnam.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#297

Post by tokioyoyo »

azinman2 wrote: post #245
harrall wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bread and butter of progress is competition and I think a lot of American companies “won” like Boeing or Intel in the 90s and no one else could compete. Unfortunately winning is disastrous because it makes you complacent. Perhaps the most flagrant and dumbest example is Internet Explorer 6. I do not approve of raising tariffs on foreign vehicles because it will dull our edge in the long term. Protectionism is a s…

Tariffs are a good way to ensure you still have a domestic capability. If Germany/korea/japan/China outcompete all US auto makers and they die, along with it goes a ton of jobs, manufacturing knowledge & capacity, cultural influence, an ability to keep capital flowing domestically, downstream suppliers, and ability to change factories from autos to military equipment in wartime. If China just keeps taking industry, t…

I completely agree with you, but it’s still funny how we were ok with the companies moving the jobs out of NA (so, we lost all the things you’ve listed) to save themselves money. But when it comes to saving money for the consumers, suddenly we’re not allowed to do the same thing, because it doesn’t help the bottom line.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#298

Post by Dalewyn »

XorNot wrote: post #291
Dalewyn wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

No, it's when an authoritarian government wants something they'll get it. And by get it I mean "they'll take your house, ignore any local environment concerns and possibly just demolish entire villages and generational livelihoods". Everyone seems to have some "oh how great it is they just get things done " as though they haven't diligently turned up to complain about some development application of the local council…

[flagged]

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#299

Post by XorNot »

dublinben wrote: post #129
TeMPOraL wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bike lanes and bikes aren't alternatives to most of what motorized transport is providing.

30% of the US can’t drive, whether because of disability, age, financial hardship, immigration status, or any number of other reasons. Why don't you hold the current system of "motorized transport" to the same impossible standard of solving all transportation needs as you expect of bikes?

Because your groceries are delivered by truck. Your houses are built with materials delivered by truck. In fact your entire lifestyle and the existence of the services which support those people, is provisioned and delivered by local road transport.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#300

Post by Dalewyn »

XorNot wrote: post #294
zie wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the coffee maker company in China has some options: * Figures out how to make it even cheaper (unlikely) * Figure out how to avoid the tariff legally: Maybe move the manufacture or assembly to Mexico for the US market. * Claim the product is something else, just enough to avoid the tariff(i.e. claim it's a tea maker, not a coffee maker) * Stop selling in the US since they won't get any sales * etc. The middle…

Also the other issue: the first thing the American company does is ensure it sells coffee-makers for $149 and not a penny less. In fact depending on your tarriff regime, this can incentivize a bunch industries to actually raise prices if the new import cost is higher then they would currently sell at.

The incentive to raise prices is pressured down by customers' desire to not spend more money than they have to. If businesses can get away with raising prices that means the price was too low to begin with, tariffs or no tariffs.
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