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The size of BYD's factory

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Re: The size of BYD's factory

#271

Post by nradov »

wbl wrote: post #97
TeMPOraL wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bike lanes and bikes aren't alternatives to most of what motorized transport is providing.

Most car trips are very short, and commuting to a CBD is easily served by transit.

Most middle-class people, especially parents of small children, aren't going straight back and forth between home and work. They're making other stops for day care, school, shopping, after-school activities, gym, etc. Often there are tight time constraints which make public transit unusable. Like it would be impossible to use transit to pick my daughter up from school and get her to practice on time. It's a constant juggle and the childless young urbanites who dominate HN seem to be ignorant of how regular people live.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#272

Post by ceejayoz »

malermeister wrote: post #65
Teever wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's what authoritarians invariably do. They abhor liberal democracies and seek to extend their domineering control over as many people as they can. The CCP is an absolutely tyrannical organization that denies their own citizens the rights that you and I take for granted. Why would they ever desire their neighbours to have what they deny their own people? Look no further than Hong Kong and North Korea to se…

Did they invade Hong Kong? It's a very western viewpoint that invasion is the only way to affect change.

Hong Kong was leased from China. No invasion necessary.

They've squashed the democracy movement there, though.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#273

Post by matthewdgreen »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #190
matthewdgreen wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's great news in the sense that this new energy storage and EV production capacity is (part of) our best chance to avoid catastrophic outcomes from climate change. It's terrifying because we (in the West) can't seem to motivate ourselves to do anything like this on the same timescale, and nations that suffered similar disparities in industrial capacity (not to mention energy production) haven't done well in the pas…

> our best chance to avoid catastrophic outcomes from climate change The US and EU are long off-peak carbon emissions (emissions even decreased during the Trump administration I, even using a trendline ignoring COVID). The biggest emitter right now is China, and it's emissions are growing not shrinking, and a considerable amount of that (including 90% of the worlds new coal plants) goes to projects like this.

China is building more renewable energy than the rest of the world combined. At this point there is no “let’s just reduce our emissions by 30% or so and hope things work out” plan that’s compatible with stopping worst-case outcomes, there is only a “let’s replace every single energy and fuel source with non-emitting ones on a ridiculously short timescale” plan. Insofar as we have a chance of doing that, it’s because of what China is doing right now.

To the extent that they’re using fossil fuels to build the infrastructure for this renewable tech, I’m completely fine with that. That’s much better than using it to build iPhones or consumer nonsense. Insofar as they’re building a renewable grid backed by modern dispatchable coal and they’re also building out massive storage manufacturing capability and their emissions are on track to decline, I’m also fine with that.

ETA: China’s emissions appear to be peaking and entering a structural decline. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2453703-clean-energy-ro...

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#274

Post by throwawaymaths »

tsudounym wrote: post #258
throwawaymaths wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but Japan has long had a cultural obsession with delivering high quality products. I don't know if China ever did, but if it did, much of it was wiped out during cultural revolution and replaced with succeed at all costs. And there is a difference between success and excellence. For example there have been zero bullet train fatalities in its entire history, and several Chinese HSR fatal accidents already. For po…

Japanese-American here. This is revisionism. Japan was absolutely known for low quality products in the past. Probably the best "pop-culture" reference to this is "Back to the Future" when Marty travels back in time to 1955 and shows Doc a Made in Japan product (camera, I think?) Doc says its junk because its Made in Japan, but Marty sees it as high quality because its from the 80s.

Thats correct but it's hard to argue that it isn't a postwar blip in Japanese history as many companies of renown have lineages spanning both sides of the war, producing high quality product, anyways it feels like more than your median country.

Obviously quite literally survivorship bias, but since that's literal, it counts.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#275

Post by renewiltord »

brcmthrowaway wrote: post #83

Can the west compete?

Not with NEPA (and CEQA and friends). The current environmental movements will have to be dismantled since they are extractive rent-seekers on production. Fortunately, a new administration will soon be power so there is an opportunity to remove the roadblocks to America’s future success.

A world with a Chinese hegemony is not going to be pretty, as online DoorDash hammer and sickle communists are about to discover.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#276

Post by throwaway2037 »

foxglacier wrote: post #217
pixelatedindex wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems they've latched on to something that works better than even democracy and capitalism Wouldn’t this just be plain old fashioned authoritarianism? America can latch on to this too, and we might based on how the Trump admin turns out.

No. One required component is plain old fashioned oversupply of labor. America doesn't have that because all employable people are too rich. China also has an oversupply of skilled labor like engineers, in part because the threat of poverty is a strong motivator to get rich. America also lacks that which you can see in capable young people doing arts degrees with no thought to their future income because it doesn't m…

    > they'll still live comfortably even on minimum wage.
You made a few good points until this one. No one in the US is living comfortably on minimum wage.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#277

Post by throwaway2037 »

rangestransform wrote: post #233
foxglacier wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. One required component is plain old fashioned oversupply of labor. America doesn't have that because all employable people are too rich. China also has an oversupply of skilled labor like engineers, in part because the threat of poverty is a strong motivator to get rich. America also lacks that which you can see in capable young people doing arts degrees with no thought to their future income because it doesn't m…

That’s an easy enough problem to solve if we had the appetite to solve it, why couldn’t we legitimize the roles illegal immigrants currently do right now with a Singapore style migrant worker program?

To be clear, I think that there is an existing, legal migrant worker programme. They do most of the non-automated farm work in Central Valley California. Also, the Singapore system is a bit ugly if you look closely. I hope the US can do better.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#278

Post by throwaway2037 »

ahartmetz wrote: post #248
Archelaos wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was refering to the size of the factory premises = land + buildings. It seems we need diffrent categories for a ranking: premises vs. base area of the buildings vs. floor area of the buildings vs. largest building per base area vs. largest building per floor area, etc. And then we would need to clarify what counts in each case ... Anyway, I live about 20 km from BASF and it is quite an impressive sight, especially…

I've studied in the area and, as a bit of a night person, often drove past at night when driving to or from parents. A very cool sight, though the smell is often less pleasant :D - presumably nothing toxic, that would be illegal, but it does smell bad. Kind of like burning plastic, but without the harshest components of that smell. Anyway, cool that Germany still has the biggest of something ~heavy industry.

I would be curious to know what chemical compounds that you are smelling. Germany has incredibly strict environmental protection laws. As an aside, the waterfront of Kawasaki, Japan is pretty similar, but not one single company. It looks straight from Factorio.

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#279

Post by throwaway2037 »

HeatrayEnjoyer wrote: post #252
robwwilliams wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: See the speed with which Colossus has been (is being) assembled in Memphis Tennessee. Yes, on an existing industrial site but this is still one damn impressive accomplishment. https://www.servethehome.com/inside-100000-nvidia-gpu-xai-co...

A data center is much easier than building an industrial factory

This seems like an apples to oranges comparison. They are completely different. Can you provide some specific examples?

Re: The size of BYD's factory

#280

Post by zie »

Dalewyn wrote: post #222
hnthrowaway0328 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't a tariff drive up prices? (or at least intended for that)

Tariffs are a surcharge on imports added and demanded by the government, paid by the people or entities importing. As an example, if an American buys a Chinese coffee maker priced at $100 and there is a 50% tariff, there is a $50 tariff that is paid by the importing American to the American government. The total cost to the importing American is $150. Now, if this price is equal to or higher than an American coffee m…

Right, the coffee maker company in China has some options:

  * Figures out how to make it even cheaper (unlikely)
  * Figure out how to avoid the tariff legally: Maybe move the manufacture or assembly to Mexico for the US market. 
  * Claim the product is something else, just enough to avoid the tariff(i.e. claim it's a tea maker, not a coffee maker)
  * Stop selling in the US since they won't get any sales
  * etc.
The middle options are the most likely: avoiding the tariff somehow. Companies do the middle two all the time to varying degrees to get around/avoid tariffs, import fees, etc, even US companies.
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