Live data from Hacker News

The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

vincentschmalbach.com

111–115 of 115 posts

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, follow this logic: 1. You sit down at a blank screen and begin writing code. 2. You put your own money into launching your web app, then advertising it, then managing it every day and modifying things before you see a single penny in revenue. 3. You earn revenue, now you are already paying taxes on that revenue. 4. You sell the company which had zero value to begin with, you already paid tax on all the reven…

But this is true for everything. A farmer puts a seed into the groud, takes care of it, harvests the vegetables, sells them, pays vat, pays possible corporate income tax, and if he wants to transfer the money to his personal account, he has to pay out a paycheck and pay taxes on that. Where's the difference if you work 8 hours at your regulat job + 4 hours at a second job? Or 4 extra hours of that second job for your…

The farmer paid tax on selling his vegetables, and property tax, and all the other taxes as you said.

If the farmer improves the land by constructing something on it, using his own money, then that is above and beyond the simple sale of products. It should be taxed as an investment that grew in value (i.e. Capital Gains), not as normal income, because the farmer had to risk his own savings to construct it.

If the construction is a hotel, of course he pays taxes too on the income from that. But he was already taxed for the money he saved which he put into building the hotel, so why should he be taxed twice at the income rate when he sells it?

The point of having a capital gains taxrate lower than an income taxrate is to incentivize people not to bury their savings under the mattress but to use it to create new growth. Whether that's by investing in listed companies or in their own startup.

The central difference between tax on earnings and tax on capital gains is that the money the farmer spends to build something new besides simply harvesting, is money the farmer already had saved after tax, and could have put elsewhere, but he took the risk of putting it here. That is why it's unwise to tax creating new value on existing properties, with your own funds, more than you would tax other investments. It prevents people from improving their own properties (or whatever startup or other project they're working on).

Obviously, if you believe that it's best not to stimulate anyone to create anything new, then you wouldn't subscribe to this idea.

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how many brilliant startups Poland bred? Poland is post-Communist state where you're at the mercy of a clerk, disfunctional courts, and bloated buggy IT systems.

CD Projekt Red?

They are older than Google, launched in the first half of the 90s. They bootstrapped in fiscal and political realities incomparable with those described three comments above.

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is definitely a weird cultural thing. I can speculate a bit. It might have some roots in social well fare. But I've also lived in Sweden and Finland which have a very different attitude towards building tech companies. Especially Finland is quite successful at doing startups and scaleups. Especially considering its small population. And of course both countries have a strong social well fare culture. And Germany i…

It's surprising to me that Germany isn't at the forefront of incentivizing an agile startup economy in any way possible. Especially as they've always been the economic powerhouse of Europe, failure to get ahead of these global trends is surprising. And this is the first time I've ever heard anyone describe Germany's infrastructure as anything below world-class, although it's been ten years since I've been there now.…

germany made a few strategic mistakes. one is allowing NIMBY attitudes to prevail to gain votes, which slows infrastructure development to a crawl, and another very specific is to not build a dedicated high speed rail network, instead believing that high speed tracks can be shared with other rail.

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#114
post #47

Incidentally, in a neighboring EU country (Poland) the tax system has a bizarre nod towards solo entrepreneurs running a SaaS: you can choose simplified revenue-based taxation and fall into the 8.5% bracket. 8.5% tax on revenue is really good. And this is very specific: it applies specifically to SaaS businesses, most revenue-based rates are higher. If you decide to sell your business, assets are taxed at 3%.

Poland still has tax friendly system towards self employed people. Usual deal you get is 19% tax (recently raised to 23.5%) so you avoid double taxation as a company (where you first pay corporate tax and then income tax or capital gain tax as an individual). This makes sense as you don't enjoy privileges of limited liability. Somehow most other countries have it backwards though. The 8.5% thing you talk about is not…

> The 8.5% thing you talk about is not really that great

I would be inclined to disagree — it is absolutely wonderful for solo entrepreneurs. You might say "it only makes sense for small one person companies", but that's exactly what my business is and intends to be.

You can easily run a SaaS business with 90%/80%/75% margins (gross/operating/net), which I think is really hard to beat anywhere in the world.

For people who want to stop working for "the man", become in control of their lives and earn money from a SaaS business, this is great.

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#115
post #8

I made a rather stupid mistake recently, as an American. I put $30k or so of my Roth IRA into BMW stock, since it was paying something close to 8% annual dividends. Once a year. I suppose I should have looked at this more closely. When the dividend was paid, the German government took about 30% of it right off the top in taxes... for a foreign investor. Still not a bad return, but I won't be buying any German stocks…

You're probably entitled to get all of that back due to double tax treaties. You just need to file for a refund.

> You just need to file for a refund.

FORGET ABOUT IT. You'd have to send traditional letters back and forth between your local tax office and the tax office of the dividend origin country. Usually the foreign tax office demands their form be rubber stamped by your local tax office. Obviously your local tax office will not rubber stamp a form by foreign tax office in a foreign language, but they don't care.

Post reply on HN