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ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#981

Post by phs318u »

sir0010010 wrote: post #961
phs318u wrote: post #856

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of things that have a real effect in the world are a convenient fiction. The fact that most people on the planet believe that the small paper rectangles printed by the US government have some value, is a consensual belief simultaneously held but no less a fiction. The rules based order of the world was once something people believed in, and therefore expected others to conform to. Until they didn’t (for lots of…

There are a finite amount of the small paper rectangles available (yes the supply is increasing, but it is finite at any moment) AND these small paper rectangles are required in order for US residents/citizens that earn income in any currency in order to stay out of prison. So, in other words, not a fiction.

And yet not all pieces of paper are believed to be equal. Some pieces of paper will buy you a loaf of bread and others will buy you a tank full of gas. The difference lies in the magic squiggles printed on the pieces of paper. In other words, the belief that a certain number value equals a fair exchange for a physical good or service. This is a consensual belief. If an extra 0 appeared magically overnight on every piece of paper, what has changed? People will believe they have “more” than they did before. If instead of magic, the government announced a policy of reissuing recycled bits of paper that have had an extra zero printed on them, would people believe they had “more”?

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#982

Post by pygar »

locallost wrote: post #248

I doubt there will be actual arrests, but there will be and there are already consequences. I just saw France and Netherlands announced they will obey the warrants, thus Netanyahu can no longer travel there. Presumably the whole of EU is off limits (I am unaware which countries recognize the court).

He will never leave Israel again. He is 75 and doesn't have many years ahead of him anyway. At some point soon he will either be voted out or kicked out through regular knessent machinations and spend his remaining years writing his memoris in hebrew only.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#983

Post by fmajid »

KK7NIL wrote: post #659
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably if they get invited to Europe it will be with assurance from the state that nothing happens to them. And traveling uninvited is probably a bad move anyway. So not much difference. If you mean to imply that Europe is somehow going to shoot down their planes if they fly over that’s obviously absurd.

> Presumably if they get invited to Europe it will be with assurance from the state that nothing happens to them. I believe ICC members are obligated to enforce its warrants, which is why Putin couldn't attend BRICS in South Africa last year. And this applies to almost all the western world: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court So no, it's not toothless.

Putin went to Mongolia, which is a signatory to the Rome statute establishing the ICC, without being arrested.

President Orbán of Hungary also extended an open invitation to Netanyahu despite the ICC arrest warrant, but he isnt' exactly known for being a stickler for the rule of law.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#984

Post by cluckindan »

throwaway_fjmr wrote: post #963
helge9210 wrote: post #897

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He referred to Palestinians as Amalek. Since there are not many Hebrew books written over the centuries (for obvious reasons), modern literature is heavily relying on religious texts for metaphors and analogues. Calling someone Amalek is a call for genocide.

Erm. No? The Amalekites are “just” the enemies of Israel.

The 188th commandment says to wipe out Amalek completely, male and female, young and old, sparing none, since evil has no future. Livestock too.

Maimonides elaborates that when the Jewish people wage war against Amalek, they must request the Amalekites to accept the Seven Laws of Noah and pay a tax to the Jewish kingdom. If they refuse, they are to be executed.

There are more moderate interpretations, but this discussion is about Ashkenazi fundamentalists.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#986

Post by v0idzer0 »

cluckindan wrote: post #984
throwaway_fjmr wrote: post #963

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm. No? The Amalekites are “just” the enemies of Israel.

The 188th commandment says to wipe out Amalek completely, male and female, young and old, sparing none, since evil has no future. Livestock too. Maimonides elaborates that when the Jewish people wage war against Amalek, they must request the Amalekites to accept the Seven Laws of Noah and pay a tax to the Jewish kingdom. If they refuse, they are to be executed. There are more moderate interpretations, but this discus…

Sure but this sounds exactly like the original definition of jihad or even “from the river to the sea” but people will get very upset if you suggest they mean they want to commit genocide when they chant it. I don’t think an argument over the meaning of ancient words is relevant or helpful here

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#987

Post by aguaviva »

wqaatwt wrote: post #978
aguaviva wrote: post #899

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some will say that it existed for a brief moment in the 90s-2000s. So were the Nuremberg Trials not an instance of the RBWO? (And all the UN mediations in e.g. Palestine, Korea, etc. from its very founding)

> Nuremberg Trials They were effectively arbitrary show trials. I mean a tiny proportion of nazi war criminals were ever prosecuted and the (covertly pro-nazi) West German government pardoned pretty much everyone who weren’t executed in a handful of years. Also the Soviets (and even the Allies) continued doing whatever they wanted with no consequences. Of course at least establishing a clear precedent was a huge achi…

Of course at least establishing a clear precedent was a huge achievement.

Glass half-full, is what I'm saying.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#988

Post by mr_toad »

ignoramous wrote: post #627
KSteffensen wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how a tiny country like Israel has become so important in global politics. By population Rwanda is ~30% larger than Israel.

> don't understand how a tiny country like Israel has become so important in global politics The simple reason is that global politics (at the UN) led to the partition of the Mandate, against the will of entire regions, which, right now, represent 30% of world's population. Besides, anti-Muslim racism and anti-Semitism always rears its very ugly head during this conflict, especially in the US. Subsequently, the lack…

> The simple reason is that global politics (at the UN) led to the partition of the Mandate

That was a piece of paper which changed nothing.

The Arab and Jewish populations had been in an escalating conflict for years, culminating in an all-out civil war. The Israeli population would have declared independence as soon as the British left regardless of what the UN said. Similarly the Arab states had no intention of letting Israel exist, and attacked as soon as the British left.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#989

Post by three14 »

nabla9 wrote: post #12

(before you jump into discussion, remember that this only about these two individuals) ICC and the prosecutor are on very solid ground here. The prosecutor asked opinions from a impartial panel of experts in international law. The panel included people like Theodor Meron (former Legal adviser for the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs), Helene Kennedy, Adrian Fulford. Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant provided plenty of ev…

If you do speak Hebrew, you would know that Netanyahu and Gallant have been heavily attacked by the extreme right specifically because they have been refusing to cut off food.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#990

Post by know-how »

Animats wrote: post #704
edanm wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? Absolutely this matters. This effectively limits where Netanyahu and Gallant can travel to. That's a big deal for a head of state. It sends a signal to all of Europe to be wary of doing business with Israel, which is a big deal. We also don't kno…

At some point Netanyahu will be out of power. He's been voted out of office before. He's in trouble politically. He promised a short, victorious war over Gaza, and got into a long major war against Iran and more countries instead. The next government might decide to turn him over to the ICC simply to get him off the political stage.

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