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Oxford accused of relying on young academics employed on gig-economy terms

theguardian.com

81–90 of 121 posts

Re: Oxford accused of relying on young academics employed on gig-economy terms

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most UK universities place a lot of value on teaching experience. If you have a PhD degree from Cambridge or Oxford, a decent publication track record and significant teaching experience, you will typically get lectureship (assistant professor) offers straight after you finish your doctoral studies. Some teaching experience will be valued more than having a stellar publication record, especially if you have a good re…

It depends on what kind of academic work you're looking for, right? If you're going for a teaching career, then yes, of course you need to have some teaching experience. If you're after a research career, e.g. a research fellowship like the ones from the Leverhulme Trust or the Royal Society of Engineering, then you really do need an astounding publication record and I don't reckon that having any teaching experience…

> depends on what kind of academic work you're looking for, right?

It depends on where you are. British universities value teaching more than American ones, which are more focussed on research.

Re: Oxford accused of relying on young academics employed on gig-economy terms

#82

All UK universities do this. Not necessarily a bad thing unlike how the article portrays it. PhD students (and depending on the institution, postdocs) in the UK get a stipend that has no mandated teaching hours. Teaching allows PhD students to earn some extra income within the university. We certainly still have a compensation problem in academia. Bright STEM PhD grads don't want to earn £30-40k as a postdoc when ear…

As someone who got accepted into an Oxf'd DPhil program, did not get a stipend and had to decline the offer it certainly stings when you say "not necessarily a bad thing".

Because it definitely is a class barrier, and since my spot wasn't filled by someone else, also a lack in research output.

Re: Oxford accused of relying on young academics employed on gig-economy terms

#83
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived with three of them, they loved doing them

Loving your job isn't mutually exclusive from being exploited. The best job I ever had was in a academic/research-tangential position out of school, but the pay was bad and the effort/reward required for advancement was unreasonable, so I left after a year.

yeah, they were being paid 3x the minimum wage, and were paid for prep time

vs. the alternative available part time work (sainsburys/tesco)

definitely exploited

Re: Oxford accused of relying on young academics employed on gig-economy terms

#84
post #73

is this news? this sounds like every university in the US, which uses underpaid adjuncts to do most of the teaching and underpaid phd candidates and postdocs to do most of the research not saying this is right -- adjuncts and postdocs absolutely need to be paid more commensurately with the value they provide -- but it has been the status quo for a long time; the bigger problem is that it used to be a temporary steppi…

> this sounds like every university in the US, which uses underpaid adjuncts to do most of the teaching and underpaid phd candidates and postdocs to do most of the research Pro tip to anyone going to university (or has kids going to university). Find a low ranked state school that has a high teacher to student ratio. Also look at the percentage of classes with under 20 students. I did my undergrad at one of those pla…

> Down side: Your peers aren't as smart, and your peers are really what push you to work on interesting projects.

This outweighs pretty much everything else for me.

Your ego either inflates to infinity because you're a big fish in a small pond, or you get depressed being around really incompetent people.

Every lecture I have is booked for 300 people but only 20-40 people ever show up. And yet everyone complains that the courses are too hard.

Is it easy and low stress? Probably. But I feel like I'm being driven into mediocrity.

Re: Oxford accused of relying on young academics employed on gig-economy terms

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is talking about full-on lectureships, for example, this part-time role, initially advertised as full-time, according to the article: >> One of Oxford’s top colleges, Christ Church, which had an income of £42.6m in 2022-23, is currently advertising a stipendiary lectureship in modern European history for £15,244 to £16,983. For comparison, 15-16k was the range of my PhD stipend at Imperial College London…

To be fair, Imperial is the best paying UK university by far. Postdoc positions at Imperial pay better than Lecturer/Senior Lecturer positions at other universities.

That may well be, but quite surprising to learn that the best paying university is still paying under minimum wage…

Re: Oxford accused of relying on young academics employed on gig-economy terms

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a postdoc in Cambridge, the problem was that there were too many PhD students and postdocs who wanted to teach. Not because of the compensation but for the experience. A lot of people wanted to try a career in the academia, and they needed teaching experience for that. But there were not enough undergraduates for them all to teach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJEmE7IYoLk Summary: colleges are way too selective today at the high end. Boomers got into elite schools far more easily, although there were less schools. It's a bit of a disingenuous argument however, because the huge increase of schools down the long long LONG pecking order of school "eliteness". But the boomer thing is spot on.

[deleted]

Re: Oxford accused of relying on young academics employed on gig-economy terms

#87

is this news? this sounds like every university in the US, which uses underpaid adjuncts to do most of the teaching and underpaid phd candidates and postdocs to do most of the research not saying this is right -- adjuncts and postdocs absolutely need to be paid more commensurately with the value they provide -- but it has been the status quo for a long time; the bigger problem is that it used to be a temporary steppi…

this is all my opinion as a 3rd year phd candidate who is thoroughly disillusioned. in STEM science there are two types of labor: thinking of experiments to do, and actually doing experiments. doing experiments is high-skill, manual labor. you often work with dangerous materials for crazy hours (some experiments take 10 hours to just do and you have no choice but to work from start to finish) and do tasks that are ph…

Thanks for your informative post. Related background on why that has happened by Dr. David Goodstein of Caltech from 1994: https://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/crunch_art.html

    "The period 1950-1970 was a true golden age for American science. Young Ph.D's could choose among excellent jobs, and anyone with a decent scientific idea could be sure of getting funds to pursue it. The impressive successes of scientific projects during the Second World War had paved the way for the federal government to assume responsibility for the support of basic research. Moreover, much of the rest of the world was still crippled by the after-effects of the war. At the same time, the G.I. Bill of Rights sent a whole generation back to college transforming the United States from a nation of elite higher education to a nation of mass higher education. Before the war, about 8% of Americans went to college, a figure comparable to that in France or England. By now more than half of all Americans receive some sort of post-secondary education. The American academic enterprise grew explosively, especially in science and technology. The expanding academic world in 1950-1970 created posts for the exploding number of new science Ph.D.s, whose research led to the founding of journals, to the acquisition of prizes and awards, and to increases in every other measure of the size and quality of science. At the same time, great American corporations such as AT&T, IBM and others decided they needed to create or expand their central research laboratories to solve technological problems, and also to pursue basic research that would provide ideas for future developments. And the federal government itself established a network of excellent national laboratories that also became the source of jobs and opportunities for aspiring scientists. Even so, that explosive growth was merely a seamless continuation of a hundred years of exponential growth of American science. It seemed to one and all (with the notable exception of Derek da Solla Price) that these happy conditions would go on forever.

    By now, in the 1990's, the situation has changed dramatically. With the Cold War over, National Security is rapidly losing its appeal as a means of generating support for scientific research. There are those who argue that research is essential for our economic future, but the managers of the economy know better. The great corporations have decided that central research laboratories were not such a good idea after all. Many of the national laboratories have lost their missions and have not found new ones. The economy has gradually transformed from manufacturing to service, and service industries like banking and insurance don't support much scientific research. To make matters worse, the country is almost 5 trillion dollars in debt, and scientific research is among the few items of discretionary spending left in the national budget. There is much wringing of hands about impending shortages of trained scientific talent to ensure the Nation's future competitiveness, especially since by now other countries have been restored to economic and scientific vigor, but in fact, jobs are scarce for recent graduates. Finally, it should be clear by now that with more than half the kids in America already going to college, academic expansion is finished forever.

    Actually, during the period since 1970, the expansion of American science has not stopped altogether. Federal funding of scientific research, in inflation-corrected dollars, doubled during that period, and by no coincidence at all, the number of academic researchers has also doubled. Such a controlled rate of growth (controlled only by the available funding, to be sure) is not, however, consistent with the lifestyle that academic researchers have evolved. The average American professor in a research university turns out about 15 Ph.D students in the course of a career. In a stable, steady-state world of science, only one of those 15 can go on to become another professor in a research university. In a steady-state world, it is mathematically obvious that the professor's only reproductive role is to produce one professor for the next generation. But the American Ph.D is basically training to become a research professor. It didn't take long for American students to catch on to what was happening. The number of the best American students who decided to go to graduate school started to decline around 1970, and it has been declining ever since. ..."
Also on that theme from a different direction by Philip Greenspun originally posted in 2006: https://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science

    "The picture so far is pretty bleak. The American academic scientist earns less than an airplane mechanic or child support profiteer, has less job security than a drummer in a boy band, and works longer hours than a Bolivian silver miner. ... Does this make sense as a career for anyone? Absolutely! Just get out your atlas. Imagine that you are a smart, but impoverished, young person in China. Your high IQ and hard work got you into one of the best undergraduate programs in China. The $1800 per month graduate stipend at University of Nebraska or University of Wisconsin will afford you a much higher standard of living than any job you could hope for in China. The desperate need for graduate student labor and lack of Americans who are interested in PhD programs in science and engineering means that you'll have no trouble getting a visa. When you finish your degree, a small amount of paperwork will suffice to ensure your continued place in the legal American work force. Science may be one of the lowest paid fields for high IQ people in the U.S., but it pays a lot better than most jobs in China or India. ..."
That last part may be less true two decades later giving rising standard of living in China and elsewhere.

That said, like the lottery, the PhD system does work out for some people.

But in general, the PhD process is a deeply broken system that chews up most people who go through it. Freeman Dyson has written on this as well. One example: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/freeman-dyson-phd-...

    ""Oh, yes. I’m very proud of not having a Ph.D. I think the Ph.D. system is an abomination. It was invented as a system for educating German professors in the 19th century, and it works well under those conditions. It’s good for a very small number of people who are going to spend their lives being professors. But it has become now a kind of union card that you have to have in order to have a job, whether it’s being a professor or other things, and it’s quite inappropriate for that. It forces people to waste years and years of their lives sort of pretending to do research for which they’re not at all well-suited. In the end, they have this piece of paper which says they’re qualified, but it really doesn’t mean anything. The Ph.D. takes far too long and discourages women from becoming scientists, which I consider a great tragedy. So I have opposed it all my life without any success at all.""
Also related From the Village Voice from 2004 about Humanities PhDs who generally have it even worse than STEM PhDs: "Wanted: Really Smart Suckers: Grad school provides exciting new road to poverty" https://web.archive.org/web/20050228044956/http://www.villag...

    "Here's an exciting career opportunity you won't see in the classified ads. For the first six to 10 years, it pays less than $20,000 and demands superhuman levels of commitment in a Dickensian environment. Forget about marriage, a mortgage, or even Thanksgiving dinners, as the focus of your entire life narrows to the production, to exacting specifications, of a 300-page document less than a dozen people will read. Then it's time for advancement: Apply to 50 far-flung, undesirable locations, with a 30 to 40 percent chance of being offered any position at all. You may end up living 100 miles from your spouse and commuting to three different work locations a week. You may end up $50,000 in debt, with no health insurance, feeding your kids with food stamps. If you are the luckiest out of every five entrants, you may win the profession's ultimate prize: A comfortable middle-class job, for the rest of your life, with summers off.

    Welcome to the world of the humanities Ph.D. student, 2004, where promises mean little and revolt is in the air. In the past week, Columbia's graduate teaching assistants went on strike and temporary, or adjunct, faculty at New York University narrowly avoided one. Columbia's Graduate Student Employees United seeks recognition, over the administration's appeals, of a two-year-old vote that would make it the second officially recognized union at a private university. NYU's adjuncts, who won their union in 2002, reached an eleventh-hour agreement for health care and office space, among other amenities.

    Grad students have always resigned themselves to relative poverty in anticipation of a cushy, tenured payoff. But in the past decade, the rules of the game have changed. Budget pressures have spurred universities' increasing dependence on so-called "casual labor," which damages both the working conditions of graduate students and their job prospects. Over half of the classroom time at major universities is now logged by non-tenure-track teachers, both graduate teaching assistants—known as TAs—and adjuncts. At community colleges, part-timers make up 60 percent of the faculties. ..."
If all that is not bad enough, here is an even worse aspect of it all: "Disciplined Minds by Jeff Schmidt": https://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/

    "Who are you going to be? That is the question.

    In this riveting book about the world of professional work, Jeff Schmidt demonstrates that the workplace is a battleground for the very identity of the individual, as is graduate school, where professionals are trained. He shows that professional work is inherently political, and that professionals are hired to subordinate their own vision and maintain strict "ideological discipline."

    The hidden root of much career dissatisfaction, argues Schmidt, is the professional's lack of control over the political component of his or her creative work. Many professionals set out to make a contribution to society and add meaning to their lives. Yet our system of professional education and employment abusively inculcates an acceptance of politically subordinate roles in which professionals typically do not make a significant difference, undermining the creative potential of individuals, organizations and even democracy.

    Schmidt details the battle one must fight to be an independent thinker and to pursue one's own social vision in today's corporate society. He shows how an honest reassessment of what it really means to be a professional employee can be remarkably liberating. After reading this brutally frank book, no one who works for a living will ever think the same way about his or her job."
One reason I am for a Universal Basic Income (UBI) is so everyone who wants it has a chance to live like an impoverished graduate student and pursue their intellectual dreams in cooperation with others of their choosing and without being exploited by an academic pyramid scheme.

Anyway, having passed through three PhD programs (in Industrial Engineering, Civil Engineering, and Ecology and Evolution plus essentially visiting another in Computing/Robotics for about a year), there is a lot more I could say on this (and have elsewhere).

Re: Oxford accused of relying on young academics employed on gig-economy terms

#88

All UK universities do this. Not necessarily a bad thing unlike how the article portrays it. PhD students (and depending on the institution, postdocs) in the UK get a stipend that has no mandated teaching hours. Teaching allows PhD students to earn some extra income within the university. We certainly still have a compensation problem in academia. Bright STEM PhD grads don't want to earn £30-40k as a postdoc when ear…

The article is talking about full-on lectureships, for example, this part-time role, initially advertised as full-time, according to the article: >> One of Oxford’s top colleges, Christ Church, which had an income of £42.6m in 2022-23, is currently advertising a stipendiary lectureship in modern European history for £15,244 to £16,983. For comparison, 15-16k was the range of my PhD stipend at Imperial College London…

Annual National Minimum Doctoral Stipend, currently £19,237 + £2000 London allowance for 2024/25. Doctoral stipends have been standardised across all the universities for as long as I have known (20+ years).

Re: Oxford accused of relying on young academics employed on gig-economy terms

#89
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, Imperial is the best paying UK university by far. Postdoc positions at Imperial pay better than Lecturer/Senior Lecturer positions at other universities.

That may well be, but quite surprising to learn that the best paying university is still paying under minimum wage…

PhD stipends are technically not classified as income in the UK. As such, they are not subject to minimum wage laws or taxation.

Re: Oxford accused of relying on young academics employed on gig-economy terms

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a postdoc in Cambridge, the problem was that there were too many PhD students and postdocs who wanted to teach. Not because of the compensation but for the experience. A lot of people wanted to try a career in the academia, and they needed teaching experience for that. But there were not enough undergraduates for them all to teach.

FYI you really don't need teaching experience to get a good academic job. The number one criteria is excellent publication record.

I’d presume that as a postdoc they have a pretty good handle on the academic job market and don’t need a one sentence FYI about how it’s important to publish.
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