Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most setups nowadays do full disk encryption outside of the FS, so the journal doesn't help much. If you have SSD->LUKS->GPT->LVM->Ext4, then a bug on any of the (newer, buggier) components before your journaled FS means you lost data.
Any examples of that happening in the wild?
I Stopped Using OpenBSD
41–50 of 81 posts
Re: I Stopped Using OpenBSD
#42Journaling filesystems have been around for decades now; I don't think I've had a data loss incident since I stopped using Windows 98? I know it's volunteer driven but it seems like working on data integrity might be more of a benefit for security than some of the gimmicks like TRAPSLED.
OpenBSD had Soft Updates, which isn't really journaling but sort of similar. It was suppose to help with with file system integrity, in the case of crashes. OpenBSD removed it last year because it got in the way of VFS updates, and was hard for the team to maintain[1]. I love OpenBSD, but it really does need a modern filesystem. The current team might be to small or just not have the right people to do a new filesyst…
Re: I Stopped Using OpenBSD
#43> flatpak: I really like software distribution done with flatpak, packages are all running in their own namespace, they can't access all the file system, you can roll back to a previous version, and do some interesting stuff As of today flatpak still has holes you can drive a truck through.
I haven't been using Flatpak, but was recently thinking about it.
Re: I Stopped Using OpenBSD
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
flatpack for isolation is a joke. All the file duplication, none of the security. Not to mention nothing that depends on camera, screen cap, etc will ever get close to working. Just accepting there's no easy solution, and do aparmour+firejail. It's awful user experience, but at least only once per application. Then it is perfect. There should be a distro like qubes but where everything must have either a firejail pro…
To be hones I appreciate flatpak for software distribution. Afaik (correct me if I’m wrong) some degree of security is implemented through selinux (i’m on fedora).
Yes, you are technically right, but you are wrong only in the sense that most packs either do not ship with a selinux policy or ship with some just-added-whatever policy.
> I appreciate flatpak for software distribution
Flatpack is for distributors. Not end users or for the benefit of the end system running them. There are already too much written about this. The lax state of selinux policies is also a result of this focus.
PS: you will see my top comment get downvoted by the distributors who enjoy to offload the burden to end users, without offering any counter argument.
Re: I Stopped Using OpenBSD
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
it is easier to setup a openbsd vm and have it handle all the network routing and wireguard stuff, than it is to simply disable the unrequested zeroconf stuff included in systemd-networkd/resolvd.
A while I'm a fan of OpenBSD where it makes sense, there's also more than one Linux distribution that does not have systemd and the related madness.
Re: I Stopped Using OpenBSD
#46OK understandable ofc.
> Running virtual machines on OpenBSD is really limited, running programs headless with one core and poor performance is not a good incentive to work at staying sharp.
Can someone explain this a bit more? I mean: I also run both VMs and OCI containers (well, Docker really atm) but what's that about "headless with one core" OpenBSD thing?
OpenBSD can run a VM but it's limited to one core and there can be no GPU passthrough? Is that what she means? That she can only access the VMs through the network?
No GPU passthrough would indeed be kinda a deal breaker for me too.
> I moved from OpenBSD to Qubes OS for almost everything
(a bit of a rant but it's related to TFA from a "what a dev may need" point of view)
I like that Qubes OS focuses on security, something which, for example, Proxmox seems to have an interest approaching about zero. Sure you can contenairize and virtualize but the Proxmox host itself, the "hypervisor" has countless ports open by default "because you'll need them for insecure lots of insecure protocols here and the entire Proxmox security seems to rely on only the firewall. Firewall which, moreover, sometimes resets by itself to "ACCEPT" everything by default.
I run Proxmox on a server and I did a proof-of-concept, running Proxmox as my desktop, using GPU passthrough from a VM to my main display (requires quite a bit of setup and settings and may or may not work on some hardware, but it's darn sweet when it works: one GPU for the host, one GPU for the guest(s)). It works. I know some are using that setup (including some Proxmox devs) on their workstation. But, sheesh, does the Proxmox team seem to care more about a shiny UI than security.
So, basically to be too far from TFA: leaving OpenBSD (considered to be ultra secure) for QubeOS... Does QubeOS really deliver more on security compared to another efficient alternative, like Proxmox? (don't get me wrong: I know that QubeOS is meant to be a desktop, which Proxmox not so much... I just wonder if QubeOS is really secure compared to OpenBSD).
In this day and age of AI models (for those who want to run some locally) requiring fat GPUs and lots of configuration on the software side and with the pace at which new models are coming out, I think nothing beats an hypervisor and VMs using GPU(s) passthrough. This way you can quickly test new models, install tens of them, backup working VMs or containers, etc.
I can see how OpenBSD is negatively affected by that: a 4090 or 5090 (or two in the same machine FWIW: a friend of mine runs just that, two 4090 using GPU passthrough) is quite something. The world, atm, shifted towards GPU. That's why NVidia is enjoying such a market cap.
Although Bluetooth and gamepad do not matter, it looks like OpenBSD may be missing something here if the GPU and GPU passthrough story is subpar.
In a "the world is moving" way.
At least in my case, after reading a TFA like this, I don't see why I'd run OpenBSD... Except as a firewall in front of my Proxmox machines (which badly need that) ; )
P.S: don't mistake this rant for me not loving Proxmox. It's just that I wished they cared less about "shiny" and "convenience" and more about not opening every single port and service under the sun on the host. Something which QubeOS may be better at.
Re: I Stopped Using OpenBSD
#47This points out something we forget at times: being a fan of a thing shouldn't mean we have to suffer for it. NetBSD doesn't have GPU compute capabilities, plus browser DRM is a PITA, so I run macOS, too. If I have to choose between not doing a thing at all and doing it in a less enjoyable environment, it's only my own foot that suffers were I to choose not doing it at all. What really matters here is that systems sh…
I suspect a lot just comes down to manpower... While extremely important the FS currently works "good" enough (although there were/are efforts to port HAMMER2). But I share the frustrations, all these little papercuts really add up and I only use OpenBSD in server settings nowadays
Is it entitled to say that is not "good enough"?
What's worse, the OBSD team is not very supportive of VMs to being with, so that would catch the blame.
Security aside, the Dream of the 90s Is Alive with OpenBSD.
Re: I Stopped Using OpenBSD
#48Sorry to see Solène Rapenne move on, I wish her success going forward. She has been a great asset to the OpenBSD team. But glad she will still try and help them out a bit. But in a way she has a point :( Just a few weeks ago I had a panic with 7.6 and half my files in /home disappeared. In the past I never lost data on an fsck, plus I never had a panic in many years. But glad I clone /home to another device daily :)…
That's insane. Note to self, never use openbsd where I can't reconstruct the system from scratch.
Re: I Stopped Using OpenBSD
#49Journaling filesystems have been around for decades now; I don't think I've had a data loss incident since I stopped using Windows 98? I know it's volunteer driven but it seems like working on data integrity might be more of a benefit for security than some of the gimmicks like TRAPSLED.
Most setups nowadays do full disk encryption outside of the FS, so the journal doesn't help much. If you have SSD->LUKS->GPT->LVM->Ext4, then a bug on any of the (newer, buggier) components before your journaled FS means you lost data.
And yet it's never happened to me. Dozens upon dozens of systems. Linux or Windows or Mac for that matter.
I've toted around a laptop with whole disk encryption for > 15 years and never lost data. Not once. Even after a forced power off.
I have, however, lost data to major FS corruption on an OpenBSD system with no encryption whatsoever. More than once. Still using ancient MBR and legacy boot because, well, OpenBSD.
Re: I Stopped Using OpenBSD
#50I keep a special laptop for all financial stuff. It is not that expensive and the inconvenience is limited. And on it I have CubesOS, but I guess OpenBSD would also be a good choice.