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'Thirsty' ChatGPT uses four times more water than previously thought

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Re: 'Thirsty' ChatGPT uses four times more water than previously thought

#91
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

chat gpt doesn't enjoy anything for itself, it provides value to people. i don't use it much, but on occasion it's been helpful to me.

So do coal-fired power plants. So does our endless production of plastic waste and our ever-growing landfills. So does all our fossil-fuel use. Where is it all taking us, friend? Most people are not honest enough with themself to understand the bigger picture, nor are they selfless enough to give a darn to sacrifice something of their own benefit to help the whole.

do you live in the forest in peace with nature?

Re: 'Thirsty' ChatGPT uses four times more water than previously thought

#92
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - it has no direct use to the wellbeing of humans - Id say if the indirect use (e.g. humans saving time [which itself is probably the most energy intensive thing, food, housing, entertainment], gaining knowledge has to surpass the costs in Order for the investment to make sense.

No one is 'gaining knowledge'. LLMs are just black-box tools that compute pseudo answers based upon a somewhat arbitrary set of training data. It's a crapshoot that looks good like ELIZA looks good.

Me: Please tell me an interesting fact I don't know.

GPT: Did you know that octopuses have three hearts and their blood is blue? Two of their hearts pump blood to the gills, while the third pumps it to the rest of the body. Interestingly, when an octopus swims, the heart that supplies blood to the body actually stops beating, which is one reason they prefer crawling to swimming—it’s less stressful on their system! Their blue blood is due to hemocyanin, a copper-based molecule that is more efficient than hemoglobin in cold, low-oxygen environments.

Me, after researching and corroborating each claim, which you should always do for any source: Wow, I didn't know some of that! Thanks for sharing!

---

This was no different than googling "interesting facts about octopuses" and skimming the first few links. And if I'd done that, you wouldn't be claiming that I didn't "gain knowledge". But by all means, commence the mental gymnastics that "prove" I haven't gained knowledge. Perhaps because I had to corroborate the information? No, you should always do that for anything. But I'm eager to hear your explanation for what really happened.

Re: 'Thirsty' ChatGPT uses four times more water than previously thought

#93
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, let's all kill ourselves and save resources!

Yeah, having less data centers will cost lives; it won't be lack of drinking water or living in an overheated environment! My mistake is mistaking high karma for intelligence. Wrong again!

This anti-compute crusade you're on is very strange. Data centers are not why the planet is burning up. Maybe you should be less patronizing of others' intelligence and do a little research of your own so that your arguments will be more rooted in fact and not feelings.

~1-3% of global energy consumption is a paltry price to pay for what digital technology can offer us. Do we waste a lot of it clicking ads and watching Netflix? Yeah, a lot of people do, and I take issue with that, not... data centers.

Re: 'Thirsty' ChatGPT uses four times more water than previously thought

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can be true, but it applies to Disneyland as well.

But if you're a conservative cynic about Disneyland, people will just label you as some old sad geezer with outdated opinions yelling at kids playing in the garden. You have to hate on something new and trendy to keep up your consumer focus group engagement metrics these days.

Energy shaming isn’t a conservative schtik. The OP is right, why are we picking and choosing? Shame them all. Disney, Six Flags, Universal Studios, Sea World, Bush Gardens

Re: 'Thirsty' ChatGPT uses four times more water than previously thought

#95
post #42

If you build the datacenter by the sea or floating, you could combine the cooling with desalination

"If my aunt had a d_ck, she'd be my uncle." --Louisiana saying I like your idea, but there's no patience or monetary motivation to postpone the energy use until more sane facilities are built.

Still in principle in places like say the arab states where you could stick a lot of solar in the desert, and there's a need for desalination it could work in principle. Though I think they still tend to use oil.

Re: 'Thirsty' ChatGPT uses four times more water than previously thought

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is 'gaining knowledge'. LLMs are just black-box tools that compute pseudo answers based upon a somewhat arbitrary set of training data. It's a crapshoot that looks good like ELIZA looks good.

Me: Please tell me an interesting fact I don't know. GPT: Did you know that octopuses have three hearts and their blood is blue? Two of their hearts pump blood to the gills, while the third pumps it to the rest of the body. Interestingly, when an octopus swims, the heart that supplies blood to the body actually stops beating, which is one reason they prefer crawling to swimming—it’s less stressful on their system! Th…

That's a lot of energy used to save you going through the octopus section of Wikipedia.

If only there was a test to find out if the person using it was a moron. Then it might be useful. Of course, Dunning-Kruger dictates that no one using such a system would ask such an important question. Also, the world is obviously well short of the necessary training data.

I've got yer real intelligence right here, dude. Ask away. I even know how to tell you that your question is a waste of time.

Re: 'Thirsty' ChatGPT uses four times more water than previously thought

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me: Please tell me an interesting fact I don't know. GPT: Did you know that octopuses have three hearts and their blood is blue? Two of their hearts pump blood to the gills, while the third pumps it to the rest of the body. Interestingly, when an octopus swims, the heart that supplies blood to the body actually stops beating, which is one reason they prefer crawling to swimming—it’s less stressful on their system! Th…

That's a lot of energy used to save you going through the octopus section of Wikipedia. If only there was a test to find out if the person using it was a moron. Then it might be useful. Of course, Dunning-Kruger dictates that no one using such a system would ask such an important question. Also, the world is obviously well short of the necessary training data. I've got yer real intelligence right here, dude. Ask away…

Amazing, you chose to move goalposts. No longer are you bothering to defend your original claim that no knowledge was gained. But now, your claim is "you could have just used another source"! That's great, thank you.

I can't tell if your deliberately pretending like I didn't give you a toy example or if you truly think I sit around querying animal facts all day.

> I even know how to tell you that your question is a waste of time.

The only waste of time has been attempting to engage with you intellectually, when all you're really interested in doing is "proving" that you're right. But if you're just going to keep moving goalposts we can just end this discussion here.

Re: 'Thirsty' ChatGPT uses four times more water than previously thought

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what’s also not housing someone? Office space. This feels like the ultimate waste - massive empty buildings in prime central locations with plentiful public transit designed to house humans during the day in addition to their own houses - which are being pushed further and further away from the central locations because of the office space - that they’re forced to commute long distances against their will to…

I think the question is how efficient is ChatGPT in providing economic value. I don't want to get in a game of anecdotes because I don't want to deny that there are use cases well-suited for LLMs and you might be in such a field. The efficiency question is thus: of all the queries LLMs serve, how many of those are hallucinations (which then need to be reprompted), how many of those are simple queries that could've be…

The thing is, at a certain point, economics is a bitch. Either efficiency improves or those uses stop. I’d note that inference is much cheaper than training and has become radically more efficient rapidly. There’s good reason to believe the current wild eyed training boom we see now will collapse on itself in terms of cost to benefit, or will curtail to the economic value.

However you need to understand that what you said is wrong. Many of these things can’t be solved with a simple query because a query returns a blob of data and the human has to search for the information in a set of documents possibly containing it.

The UX of “I have a question” and the answer of “ok here’s a likely direct answer that’s comprehensive and comprehensible to which you can ask any follow up” in unbeatable. It’s what AskJeaves.com was as one of the first search engines but couldn’t achieve because NLP was so shitty. The fact it might hallucinate - which is very unlikely in a frontier model on a pedestrian question about common knowledge that can likely be answered by a search query since it’s training set likely contains a lot of examples of the answer and it can supplement with a basic RAG against a traditional search engine - is not even that relevant because unless you’ve not used modern search engines recently it’s almost impossible to get a straight answer from search due to SEO.

So the reality to your rhetorical question is “every single one of those questions only an LLM could have solved.” Because they’re the first real NLP system we’ve invented that can give coherent answers to the question.

Very few search engine queries are seeking documents. Most are seeking an answer to a question. A search engine has been the best we could do until a few years ago to answer questions and the user experience is fairly shit and rapidly deteriorating due to economics. It’s like asking a professor a question and being answered with a bibliography but over time realizing the professor is being paid under the table to stuff the bibliography with advertisements and the rest of the bibliography was replaced by other ads pretending to be source material and the professor just looked at the title to select them. Not only is the answer not an answer - it’s a list of stuff to read which might contain the answer if you read it all - it’s increasingly unlikely the answer is even there at all. You can argue “but the professor answering with a bibliography ensures you learn a lot!” Which is fair but people usually just want a direct answer and would sooner go to the cool professor down the hall who answers your question and gives the bibliography as citations (as modern frontier LLMs like ChatGPT and Claude do).

The fact the cook professor dabbles in mushrooms too much during office hours is unfortunate and the school administration is working on that. But it’s useful enough people literally don’t care.

For use cases where the cost >> value like collaborative filtering - well, fine. LLMs won’t be used there because the value doesn’t hold. We are only two or three years into this and there’s a lot of just dumb stuff because no one knows what will stick. And LLMs will not be the answer to everything. But I think they’re going to be increasingly more powerful simply because we will defer the right algorithm to the problem and the LLMs will be the glue of language and abductive reasoning that makes something useful, such as information retrieval, usable. And that alone is more valuable than Google’s search engine. And that is not the only use - as I’ve seen directly. So yes LLMs won’t be grand masters at chess beating alpha blue. They don’t have to be. They can be the user interface to Alpha blue and alpha blue becomes more usable immediately and much more valuable.

The hardest problem in CS isn’t cache coherency or naming things or off by one errors it’s making useful things usable, and among all the other useful things LLMs have done, they have absolutely solved the hardest problem of all - making all the useful things usable.

Re: 'Thirsty' ChatGPT uses four times more water than previously thought

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s wrong with this perspective? Why are the scale of incumbents not part of these stories?

"Industrial activity requires inputs" is not news, not even remotely. We don't have Star Trek replicators and free energy. "Data centre uses water for cooling" is also not news, not in the slightest, in any way, shape or form. It's how it's done. It's how it's been done for decades , at a huge scale, but that scale is absolutely dwarfed by... checks notes... everything else. Literally just the leaks in municipal wate…

Totally agree. Both water and electricity have fugitive problems. Sydney has an interesting application: capturing an iceberg and towing it to one part of the harbor. At that point, waste heat from a data center could be useful in melting it into the water system.

Re: 'Thirsty' ChatGPT uses four times more water than previously thought

#100
post #18
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

chat gpt doesn't enjoy anything for itself, it provides value to people. i don't use it much, but on occasion it's been helpful to me.

The question is how much value. Sure, learning about entropy & unblocking students is huge value - producing clickbait content does way less so imo

You don't have to click on clickbait. If you voted with your clicks, it wouldn't make them a profit.
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