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ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#961

Post by sir0010010 »

phs318u wrote: post #856
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? It's clear that the most powerful militaries in the world (US, Russia, essentially China too) have declared the "rules-based world order" dead. Does it do anyone any good to pretend this hasn't happened? It reminded me of the post Elizabeth Warren…

Lots of things that have a real effect in the world are a convenient fiction. The fact that most people on the planet believe that the small paper rectangles printed by the US government have some value, is a consensual belief simultaneously held but no less a fiction. The rules based order of the world was once something people believed in, and therefore expected others to conform to. Until they didn’t (for lots of…

There are a finite amount of the small paper rectangles available (yes the supply is increasing, but it is finite at any moment) AND these small paper rectangles are required in order for US residents/citizens that earn income in any currency in order to stay out of prison. So, in other words, not a fiction.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#962

Post by [deleted] »

Animats wrote: post #704
edanm wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? Absolutely this matters. This effectively limits where Netanyahu and Gallant can travel to. That's a big deal for a head of state. It sends a signal to all of Europe to be wary of doing business with Israel, which is a big deal. We also don't kno…

At some point Netanyahu will be out of power. He's been voted out of office before. He's in trouble politically. He promised a short, victorious war over Gaza, and got into a long major war against Iran and more countries instead. The next government might decide to turn him over to the ICC simply to get him off the political stage.

[deleted]

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#963

Post by throwaway_fjmr »

helge9210 wrote: post #897
mikae1 wrote: post #884

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did they really think that when they talk Hebrew to their audience, rest of the world does not hear them. Case like this would be harder to prosecute without evidence of intent. What are you talking about here? Link?

He referred to Palestinians as Amalek. Since there are not many Hebrew books written over the centuries (for obvious reasons), modern literature is heavily relying on religious texts for metaphors and analogues. Calling someone Amalek is a call for genocide.

Erm. No? The Amalekites are “just” the enemies of Israel.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#964

Post by jmward01 »

megous wrote: post #819
jmward01 wrote: post #755

Reading the comments in this thread and reflecting on history a bit, the thought that comes to mind is that this is less a trial for the defendants and more a trial of the ICC and more broadly international institutions and their true independence, effectiveness and ultimately, relevance.

Reflecting on the history a bit... If you think that trying some head of a small thuggish state, founded by its unilateral declaration of sovereignty over someone else's land, while already cleansing it of unruly natives, and terrorizing British officials for years both in Palestine and internationally (like with assassination campaigns and embassy bombings), that dug its own hole over decades into ethno-supremacy ba…

There is definitely an argument that the ICC's actions showed independence. I was trying to imply that in what I wrote. Maybe I need to be a little more clear. If nothing happens, these warrants go away, no sort of trial happens, etc etc, then it is likely that the ICC will be seen as increasingly irrelevant and ineffective. It is still likely to be viewed that way even if a trial does actually go forward but definitely if this just dies away quietly I suspect many will see the organization as nothing but a tool that some governments get to use when they want, and not an impartial check on international actions. I tried not to imply anything about the warrants, the people they are for or the events they are in response to because my discussion point was about the ICC and not the defendants.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#965

Post by ngcc_hk »

Animats wrote: post #704
edanm wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? Absolutely this matters. This effectively limits where Netanyahu and Gallant can travel to. That's a big deal for a head of state. It sends a signal to all of Europe to be wary of doing business with Israel, which is a big deal. We also don't kno…

At some point Netanyahu will be out of power. He's been voted out of office before. He's in trouble politically. He promised a short, victorious war over Gaza, and got into a long major war against Iran and more countries instead. The next government might decide to turn him over to the ICC simply to get him off the political stage.

International crime or not, the long war with Iran like the long war with Russia is not a choice by Biden/netanyahu. It is always Iran here … can Iran promise a short one. Russia will as well. Just no Isreal or Ukraine.

I have no idea how to resolve this. It is a mess. But one side needs to be PC and the other side was constrained to do this and that. When is icc warrant on putin and get him really arrested.

We hope for peace, rule based … but that is hope. One side disarming will not help.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#967

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

anon291 wrote: post #934
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. However, Pax Americana did, at least initially, at least give semblance of established rules working. Now even that pretense is gone. Eh. No. I am not sure where the concept this weird concept of 'bombing them to nothing did not help; we probably need to bomb them some more' comes from. I accept your premise that some of it is the question of will, but you have to admit that two decades with nothing to show for…

> bombing them to nothing did not help; we probably need to bomb them some more' comes from. To be clear, bombing is not colonizing. Colonizing entails undoing the current culture and replacing it with your own. You don't replace culture with bombs, but rather by taking the young people, educating them in America, and then shipping them back a la Britain (among other things). You have to do this for several decades,…

This is a weirdly interesting distinction. Can you elaborate a little on this point? I am not sure what I think yet, but I am curious what you think could have been done differently in Iraq ( or Vietnam for that matter ).

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#968

Post by NomDePlum »

dotancohen wrote: post #760
GordonS wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low. My understanding is that's because it's usually difficult to show intent . However, in this case, not only do we have an incredible amount of video evidence of war crimes, but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza. My biggest concern over this is what the US and/or Mossad will do...

[flagged]

Ironically the IDF are probably most guilty of making tiktok footage that causes long term damage to people's views of Israelis.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#969

Post by YZF »

HeavyStorm wrote: post #913
YZF wrote: post #891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Tell us about the West Bank, then. What is happening there right now and how it relates to Hamas? I do think there's evidence, plenty of, that Israel is doing its best to expel the Palestinians. I don't pretend to understand how it's to be a country surround by enemies, and there's a lot of history there that explain all of this. But the current facts - all the destruction in Gaza - can't be justified, ever. You say…

[flagged]

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#970

Post by YZF »

atoav wrote: post #910
YZF wrote: post #891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> The majority of Israeli would like to find some sort of win win solution where everyone can live in peace. The majority of Palestinians don't see any solution that includes Jewish people living in the region. [citation needed] Because your equivalent on the other side would say it is exactly the other way around, and both of you would feel unarguably right. So unless you base your claim here on a neutral trusted so…

[flagged]
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