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Tim O'Reilly: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme of Them All

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Re: Tim O'Reilly: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme of Them All

#22
post #5
post #4

There are some good points here: it certainly seems the growth of derivative financial products, and the whole financial sector, has outpaced what the "concrete" economy can support. But the claim that the Earth is full? Absurd. Clearly, we have some serious environmental limitations. CO2 emissions, rainforests, overpopulation, etc. But this Earth is wonderfully well-stocked with potential sources of energy and other…

"We haven't figured out how to use all of them yet.." I would modify this a little with the following: "We haven't figured out how to use all of them yet or we don't want to use all of them yet..." Hero of Alexandria, for all practical purposes, discovered the use of steam power, but because labor was so cheap, it was never pursued.

The explanation is actually more complex..

Re: Tim O'Reilly: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme of Them All

#23

He's wrong, there is no Ponzi scheme at all. Let me explain... First of all, we have limited resources. The resources we absolutely need, for example, food and water, however, exist in enough quantity for all the people that currently exist (otherwise they would die). The second layer of resources, for example, metal to build cars, crude oil for energy, also exist in enough quantity for now . The exchange between bas…

We are sitting on a huge ball of matter orbiting around an even huger source of low-enough-entropy energy. We are not running out of stuff anytime soon.

(Oil and animal/plant species may become quite scarce, though.)

Re: Tim O'Reilly: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme of Them All

#24
>It is a crisis of overgrowth of financial assets relative to growth of real wealth /.../paper exchanging for paper is now 20 times greater than exchanges of paper for real commodities.

Unfortunately, even former World Bank economists could have dismal understanding of modern finance. But everybody nowadays likes to sing a populist tune.

A financial transaction is simply passing of legal title of a real asset from one person to another. Think of a pension fund who wants to makes sure it will be able to pay future pensions to the widows and orphans and buys a corporate bond portfolio.

Of course, a pension fund will not want to manage each corporation in its portfolio. So it will buy securities rather than do direct lending, sit on company boards etc. The fund will try to diversify its risk among many bonds. This is the first step of separation of 'real wealth' from 'financial assets'.

When you have many pension funds doing the same thing -- buying corporate bonds diversified enough and be representative of US economy -- they are likely to outsource this task to a specialist. An 'index fund' will be creating a 'collection of corporate bonds' with desired characteristics (credit quality, size etc.), and all other investors will buy a piece of this index fund as large as they want.

Now we have removed 'financial assets' two steps from the 'real business'. Buying a share in an index fund is obviously not the same as making a direct loan to the corporation and a having dinner with the CEO. It is much cheaper, so more money is left for widows and orphans.

Here comes the last step. When large players (pension funds) buy or sell these baskets of securities, they don't want their brokers (investment banks) to get rich from all those commission on trading individual securities in it. So they pass the ownership to each other through so called swaps. A swap between two funds would look like this: 'Fund A to Fund B (current owner of the portfolio): I will take the risk of owning these bonds for a year. If they drop in price comparing to today, I'll pay you the difference. If they rise - you'll pay me. It's as good as if I owned the thing for a year. But you'll remain the formal owner'.

And these two would record the transaction based on the total value of the bonds, even though they are only risking the price difference between two set dates. And then the swap buyer may change his mind in a week's time and enter in another swap with another fund. So value of the swaps outstanding will grow larger and larger until it looks really scary to journalists and other clueless people. There has been $596 trillion of derivatives outstanding (as of December 2007). So what? It's a backlog of the transactions, more or less. If you off-set them against each other, you'll arrive back to underlying securities' value, and eventually trace it all back to the balance sheet of individual companies.

So there is no such thing as 'financial assets'. Each title associated with a financial paper can be traced back to a 'real thing', a real asset somewhere.

One should not forget that derivatives (financial assets etc. whatever) have made capital transaction costs very low. Low costs have led to more efficient allocation of capital and to great benefits to the society.

That's why a backlash against financial innovation is dangerous. I don't think we'll be better off by destroying the financial markets and moving back to barter.

Finally, if you want to find a real Ponzi scheme mastermind, this is Mr Greenspan and the US government in general. They were trying to prevent a bit of an economic pain -- a post 2000 dot-com slowdown -- by artificially lowering interest rates which had led to unrealistic pricing of capital everywhere, not only in the US. Which has led to property bubble growing and bursting (soon to be followed by US government debt bubble) and now we all face much bigger pain. But this should not be blamed on derivatives and financial markets. The easier it is to pass an ownership title on a real asset to another person - the better.

Re: Tim O'Reilly: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme of Them All

#26
post #11

Isn't PageRank a type of Ponzi scheme?

A Ponzi scheme is where new investors pay returns to existing investors, but there is no actual trade made using the income.

EDIT: Oops. Explained adsense. Too much multi-tasking. Irrelevant anyway, since PageRank does not have any of the above characteristics.

Per prior comments, everything is not suddenly a Ponzi scheme.

Re: Tim O'Reilly: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme of Them All

#27

He's wrong, there is no Ponzi scheme at all. Let me explain... First of all, we have limited resources. The resources we absolutely need, for example, food and water, however, exist in enough quantity for all the people that currently exist (otherwise they would die). The second layer of resources, for example, metal to build cars, crude oil for energy, also exist in enough quantity for now . The exchange between bas…

First of all, we have limited resources. The resources we absolutely need, for example, food and water, however, exist in enough quantity for all the people that currently exist (otherwise they would die)

Err, people _do_ die because they don't have enough food. That's not to say that we _could_ have enough food to feed the world, but famine is a real issue in some parts of the world.

If for example, we were destroying farmland to produce in excess right now, and we know this will make the farmland completely useless in the future, then this is a scheme that will collapse. But we're not doing that in any significant quantity.

There are many who believe this is the case (see Wendell Berry, for example).

Re: Tim O'Reilly: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme of Them All

#28
post #27

He's wrong, there is no Ponzi scheme at all. Let me explain... First of all, we have limited resources. The resources we absolutely need, for example, food and water, however, exist in enough quantity for all the people that currently exist (otherwise they would die). The second layer of resources, for example, metal to build cars, crude oil for energy, also exist in enough quantity for now . The exchange between bas…

First of all, we have limited resources. The resources we absolutely need, for example, food and water, however, exist in enough quantity for all the people that currently exist (otherwise they would die) Err, people _do_ die because they don't have enough food. That's not to say that we _could_ have enough food to feed the world, but famine is a real issue in some parts of the world. If for example, we were destroyi…

People don't die because we don't have enough food. If there were not enough food, those people would survive a week or so, and would be long dead.

People are dying because they are restricted from moving to areas with enough food. They are not dying because we lack food in the world.

Be very careful with this line of argumentation, because the surface scratching articles in papers are different from what the reality of the situation in the world is.

Re: Tim O'Reilly: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme of Them All

#30
post #29

I liked the one where Ponzi jumped over the shark on his waterskis.

[deleted]

Rather than notice the trend of story submissions I would be more concerned about the latest trend of one-liner jokes at the beginning of each story. If you all would like to see HN degrade into Reddit or the unintellectual abyss known as Digg, I suggest everyone keep on up-modding these crap jokes and give people more incentive to try and give their stab at humor. HN has seen quite a spike in users lately and it seems as though we are at the tipping point. If the trend is not acknowledged and responded to accordingly, HN will go down the same road these other sites have.
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