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ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#911

Post by atoav »

YZF wrote: post #887
geysersam wrote: post #880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not serious to dismiss the allegations by just saying > If Israel had intended to not supply any food or water to the Palestinians [...] the bottom line is they did not do so. because several heavyweight international humanitarian organizations say that they did. Even the US government implies this when they tell Israel to open border crossings or get cut off from military aid.

It's not serious to suggest that Israel did not supply any food or water to the Palestinians when in fact it supplied plenty. Why didn't Egypt supply food and water to the Palestinians? (Before Israel took the border corridor). What other war can you provide me as an example where a the opposing side provided supplies to its enemy? Does Russia supply Ukraine with food and water? Does Ukraine supply Russia? Did the al…

You are aware that there are international laws regulating what an occupying force is and isn't required to do?

Not letting civilians in occupied areas starve is one of the laws.

And this is very basic occupational law, if you don't know that maybe consider lowering your voice on the issue in the future?

https://www.icrc.org/en/law-and-policy/occupation

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#912

Post by helge9210 »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #901
helge9210 wrote: post #897

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He referred to Palestinians as Amalek. Since there are not many Hebrew books written over the centuries (for obvious reasons), modern literature is heavily relying on religious texts for metaphors and analogues. Calling someone Amalek is a call for genocide.

[flagged]

The main lesson of the Holocaust is: if someone is saying he is going to kill you, you believe him and act accordingly.

Let's for the sake of argument assume you're correct and these were just words. How come at least 200k civilians in Gaza are dead as the result?

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#913

Post by HeavyStorm »

YZF wrote: post #891
aguaviva wrote: post #883

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war is against Hamas not against Palestinians Of course it's not against the Palestinians, per se. It's a war against their continued presence on portions of Greater Israel that his party and his people would like to further colonize. There's also the current operation involving his former "asset" and strategic partner, Hamas. With whom it seems he's had a falling out of sorts, and as a result, his people got mas…

[flagged]

Tell us about the West Bank, then. What is happening there right now and how it relates to Hamas?

I do think there's evidence, plenty of, that Israel is doing its best to expel the Palestinians.

I don't pretend to understand how it's to be a country surround by enemies, and there's a lot of history there that explain all of this. But the current facts - all the destruction in Gaza - can't be justified, ever.

You say that ICC has no investigative power. But ONU has people on the ground and has been denouncing Israel for months...

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#914

Post by com »

ashoeafoot wrote: post #895
com wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Justice has to be declared as an essential principle of human organisation. If the 1984 vision of a boot stamping on a human face forever is going to work out to be true, then so be it. The ICJ is at least holding out against that future. What will you (as a human) choose to do? These days and years are going to be definitional I think.

Justice is self hypnosis and self idealization that settles in when there is plenty to go around. If there isn't its just a threatening word , whose values is mostly "we get you all when the good times roll back around ." Which they usually don't do unless there are major scientific breakthroughs generating surplus and a amnesty after armistice.

Reflecting on these words, it’s clear that many people take a “realist” perspective on power in and between human societies, and see no reason at all to strive to create better conditions for all or even most humans.

My take: it’s a luxury position that probably only makes sense if you’ve been a winner in the birth lottery of the global elite. They are the enablers of power-for-power’s sake populists and dead-eyed bureaucrats because they are certain, at least until too late, that bad things won’t happen to them of their loved ones.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#915

Post by com »

EdSchouten wrote: post #881
com wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Dutch have a very lackadaisical attitude to law, and at the very same time a very principled cut-off-my-nose-to-spite-my-face rule of law mentality. If I were a senior Israeli or Hamas leader I’d avoid the place for a couple of decades in case of sealed charges.

> The Dutch have a very lackadaisical attitude to law What do you mean by this specifically?

There are many laws on the books that are ignored or in practice re-interpreted in the ground so that enforcement is only attempted in the most egregious situations.

Case in point: the “gedoogbeleid” for soft drugs. Contrary to many people’s belief, possession, sale etc of these are not legalised in the way that we see in many other jurisdictions. Yet, teenagers sit on the side of the canal near my old home getting happily stoned with their friends and say “hi” to passing police and “handhaving” city rule enforcement officers. They buy from the “coffeeshop” whose coffee making is more theoretical than practical, even though sales of the weed they buy are against the law. Sometimes inspectors will visit the shop to ensure that no tobacco is being smoked, but not being concerned about weed, with the threat of large fines or even loss of license to sell soft drugs (illegal, remember?) being withdrawn.

It’s all quite curious.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#916

Post by xchip »

HeavyStorm wrote: post #913
YZF wrote: post #891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Tell us about the West Bank, then. What is happening there right now and how it relates to Hamas? I do think there's evidence, plenty of, that Israel is doing its best to expel the Palestinians. I don't pretend to understand how it's to be a country surround by enemies, and there's a lot of history there that explain all of this. But the current facts - all the destruction in Gaza - can't be justified, ever. You say…

UNO has been denouncing Israel abuses and occupation for years

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#917

Post by Qem »

GordonS wrote: post #222
bawolff wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, nobody really knows until the trial (if one ever happens). Its easy to be convincing when you are just listening to the prosecution - it gets harder once the defense has the opportunity to poke holes. Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low. > The prosecutor asked opinions from a impartial panel of experts in international law. The court already disagreed with said panel on one of the charges (c…

> Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low. My understanding is that's because it's usually difficult to show intent . However, in this case, not only do we have an incredible amount of video evidence of war crimes, but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza. My biggest concern over this is what the US and/or Mossad will do...

> but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza.

There was even a database set to track this large number of genocide calls. See https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-databas...

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#918

Post by cies »

lostlogin wrote: post #356
cies wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the US has threatened to invade NL if ICC warrants one of them. So much for the ICC: a banana court. It felt so real when Milosovic was trialed: now we all know the true nature of these show trials.

It’s a banana court because the US doesn’t recognise it?

If you make a court under the UN and you trail US' adversaries' (Serbia) leaders (Milosovic), WHILE the US (who we know --thanks Snowden and Assange-- commits plenty of war crimes) does not recognize it: that is the definition of a kangaroo court.

Just for show. Just to provide some veil of legitimacy for the US actions to evil does without the US itself being held to the same standards.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#919

Post by cies »

ceejayoz wrote: post #352
cies wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the US has threatened to invade NL if ICC warrants one of them. So much for the ICC: a banana court. It felt so real when Milosovic was trialed: now we all know the true nature of these show trials.

Milošević was not tried by the ICC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Tribuna...

Lol. Thought they were the same. Both in The Hague.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#920

Post by bawolff »

runarberg wrote: post #776
GordonS wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low. My understanding is that's because it's usually difficult to show intent . However, in this case, not only do we have an incredible amount of video evidence of war crimes, but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza. My biggest concern over this is what the US and/or Mossad will do...

I think they only need to show intent if they are being charged with genocide, however, I think in this case they are being charged with using starvation as a weapon, hindering aid, and targeting hospitals. I think the recommendation also included extermination, which is similar to genocide, but also does not require intent, but I think the voted against that. I think the evidence for the charges which were actually…

> I think the recommendation also included extermination, which is similar to genocide, but also does not require intent, but I think the voted against that.

Persecution is the charge probably most similar to genocide minus a lot of the intent requirements (which was granted). The requirements for extermination (which was rejected) is basically they have to be resposible for > 50 illegal deaths (not sure on the exact number, but somewhere in the double digits). The icc granted the murder charge, which is the lesser version of exterminatin when it is only < 50 ish deaths.

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