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ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#701

Post by tzs »

fmajid wrote: post #476
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? It's clear that the most powerful militaries in the world (US, Russia, essentially China too) have declared the "rules-based world order" dead. Does it do anyone any good to pretend this hasn't happened? It reminded me of the post Elizabeth Warren…

Netanyahu and Gallant will no longer be able to travel to Europe, and likely will not want to fly over Europe either (thus not to the US either).

If they just wanted to hop on a regular commercial flight to the US that might be a problem, but I'd expect they would fly on military aircraft.

Instead of taking the most direct route which would fly over Europe they could stay over the Mediterranean until they reach the Atlantic and then head straight to the US.

That adds about 500 miles or so to the trip which probably isn't a big deal on a trip that long.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#702

Post by ckemere »

giladamar wrote: post #629
iamleppert wrote: post #587

[flagged]

To speak only to the factual claims and not any of your conclusions: Biblical Israel did not include any part of Egypt, nor does it contain all of Lebanon. It is concerning that you would claim this when the biblical map of Israel is a Google search away. Speaking as someone within the Jewish community, absolutely no one views Netanyahu as the messiah. You will find all sorts and views that are for or against, but no…

Just to clarify - there is some technical correctness in this statement "Biblical Israel did not include any part of Egypt, nor does it contain all of Lebanon". I believe Genesis 15:18–21 says in "from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river [Euphrates]" (also see "map of Kingdom of King Solomon"). While this would suggest the "promised land" includes all the way to modern Iraq, it is true that most maps exclude the Phonecian areas around Tyre and Sidon. And the definition of "the wadi of Egypt" has been interpreted by some as the Nile, but I think this is mostly not believed. So it is most likely correct that "Biblical Israel does not contain ALL of Lebanon" and "did not include any part of Egypt", but this elides the fact that the Biblical narrative (not necessarily backed up by archeology) would extend into many neighboring countries.

[edit] To clarify - I do believe that some Israelis are motivated by a desire to occupy "Biblical Israel", but the parent comment is (a) ridiculous and (b) attributes way to many grand motivations for Netanyahu than I think are supported by evidence. (Compared to "savvy politician who says things to get votes for selfish reasons.")

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#703

Post by cwkoss »

loceng wrote: post #538

dang, Any strange upvote/downvote activity going on in this thread? Watching my own replies votes going up and down, makes me think of the "THERE WAS A FIREFIGHT!" GIF: https://tenor.com/search/there-was-a-fire-fight-gifs E.g. Going to 2 then down to 0, back up, back down and stabilizing again at 0; of course sophisticated coordinated activity will pace itself, even if across real users, as to not "waste their ammo"…

[flagged]

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#704

Post by Animats »

edanm wrote: post #663
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? It's clear that the most powerful militaries in the world (US, Russia, essentially China too) have declared the "rules-based world order" dead. Does it do anyone any good to pretend this hasn't happened? It reminded me of the post Elizabeth Warren…

> My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? Absolutely this matters. This effectively limits where Netanyahu and Gallant can travel to. That's a big deal for a head of state. It sends a signal to all of Europe to be wary of doing business with Israel, which is a big deal. We also don't kno…

At some point Netanyahu will be out of power. He's been voted out of office before. He's in trouble politically. He promised a short, victorious war over Gaza, and got into a long major war against Iran and more countries instead. The next government might decide to turn him over to the ICC simply to get him off the political stage.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#705

Post by [deleted] »

pagade wrote: post #463
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #82

>In his first response to the ICC issuing a warrant for his arrest on allegations of war crimes, Benjamin Netanyahu’s office has described the ruling as “absurd and false lies” and said the decision is “antisemitic.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/nov/21/internati... If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have…

Antisemitic. Every time I hear this word, I can’t help but think of its irony—a term used exclusively for describing discrimination against one community, as if prejudice against them carries more weight than against any other. Perhaps, though, it serves as the best reflection of our hypocrisy.

[deleted]

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#706

Post by dlubarov »

culi wrote: post #583
peppers-ghost wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"confirmed" data from Gaza at the moment is unreliable. The people who were doing the counting have either been killed or cleansed from the area. The official death toll is still around 40k despite the reality being closer to 100-200k.

GP is not citing the ICC. The ICC never claims 41 deaths are confirmed. GP is citing a Wikipedia article which is undergoing an edit war. The Wikipedia page had cited 62,413 deaths and then was switched to a pro-Israel source that instead says "41+" ICC never claimed only 41 deaths were confirmed

[flagged]

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#707

Post by ben_w »

tzs wrote: post #701
fmajid wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netanyahu and Gallant will no longer be able to travel to Europe, and likely will not want to fly over Europe either (thus not to the US either).

If they just wanted to hop on a regular commercial flight to the US that might be a problem, but I'd expect they would fly on military aircraft. Instead of taking the most direct route which would fly over Europe they could stay over the Mediterranean until they reach the Atlantic and then head straight to the US. That adds about 500 miles or so to the trip which probably isn't a big deal on a trip that long.

Now I'm wondering if airspace spreads out horizontally from the coast the same way that shipping rights do.

I'd assume so, but a quick skim-read didn't tell me either way.

If it does, then they'd pick between going through Spanish or Moroccan airspace, because the straights of Gibraltar are narrow enough you can see Africa from Gibraltar.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#708

Post by lynndotpy »

loeg wrote: post #631
carb wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. #1 this topic is not as divisive as it may seem. There is consensus as to what is happening and only a minority of the world thinks otherwise. #2 Israel is a major tech partner and most large tech companies have offices in Tel Aviv. Many startups that we discuss here are headquartered in Tel Aviv. The head of state of the country having an ICC arrest warrant and the situation at large have major consequen…

> There is consensus as to what is happening and only a minority of the world thinks otherwise. Well, that's obviously false. GP is right; this topic produces more heat than light.

There is a strong but not unanimous consensus that Israel is committing war-crimes and enforcing an apartheid state in the territories it occupies. There is consternation over whether Israel's actions constitute genocide.

That said, I think it's fair to assume that people from the US and other Israel-allied nations are disproportionately represented on Hacker News. So, we should not expect the global consensus to be reflected here.

But I think think this topic both (1) is on topic for HackerNews given Israel's outsized prevalence in the tech industry, (2) has geopolitical implications that I think are worth discussing.

Either way, HackerNews is an outlier in terms of the quality of the discussion, among social media or forums where people will argue both for and against Israel's actions. While I am very much on the "against Israel's actions" side, I do think there is value in this discussion, and so I am happy this topic is here on HackerNews.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#709

Post by bawolff »

GordonS wrote: post #222
bawolff wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, nobody really knows until the trial (if one ever happens). Its easy to be convincing when you are just listening to the prosecution - it gets harder once the defense has the opportunity to poke holes. Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low. > The prosecutor asked opinions from a impartial panel of experts in international law. The court already disagreed with said panel on one of the charges (c…

> Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low. My understanding is that's because it's usually difficult to show intent . However, in this case, not only do we have an incredible amount of video evidence of war crimes, but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza. My biggest concern over this is what the US and/or Mossad will do...

Usually when people say that they are talking about genocide. War crimes and crimes against humanity may have some intent requirements but they don't have the double intent that genocide has, which is the part that is super difficult to prove.

To over simplify (also ianal) with genocide you basically have to prove that the only possible rationale for the action was to try and destroy the protected group and that there is no other plausible explanation. With normal war crimes its more just proving the act wasn't done accidentally. [This is a gross oversimplification]

> but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza.

I don't think that is relavent here, as genocide is not one of the charges. Additionally, that would probably be more relavent to state responsibility for genocide (what the icj decides) and not personal responsibility (what icc has juridsication over). Even for state responsibility, its a bit iffy how much those statements matter if they aren't said by people who have the power to issue orders to the military (they of course matter a lot if the charge is failing to suppress incitement of genocide). I'm not saying its totally irrelavent, it is probably a bit relavent to the prosecution charge, but largely it matters more what the individuals themselves have said as they are being charged in an individual capacity not as agents of the state.

Basically the ICC and ICJ are different and what you are saying is more applicable to the ICJ case not the ICC case.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#710

Post by runako »

maccard wrote: post #119
KSteffensen wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how a tiny country like Israel has become so important in global politics. By population Rwanda is ~30% larger than Israel.

They’re a western bastion in very close proximity to the Middle East, with a cultural and religious tie to a not insignificant number of Americans. It’s also a wealthy country.

> very close proximity to the Middle East

Israel is in the Middle East.

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