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ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#581

Post by culi »

dankai wrote: post #45

"The Chamber therefore found reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant bear criminal responsibility for the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare." Whats perhaps interesting to note is that this charge was made for "just" 41 [1] confirmed starvation deaths among a population of 2,141,643 people [2]. Of course every death caused by intentional starvation is a severe crime and must be puni…

This comment is just pure misinformation. Nobody is claiming only 41 deaths.

You're citing an irrelevant Wikipedia page as a source that has a crazy edit history going back and forth between "41+" and "62,413 conservative estimated" deaths

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#582

Post by 11101010001100 »

ThinkBeat wrote: post #473

I really don't think this belongs on the front page. It is a highly divisive political issue with strong radicalisation at the edges of any discourse on it. I have my own strong opinions on it, but arguing it does not in my opinon belong on the front page here. There are plenty of places you can go and have this discussion in as heated of a version as you prefer.

Legal issues seem to attract plenty of attention on HN. We could see what sort of precedent has been set.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#583

Post by culi »

peppers-ghost wrote: post #76
dankai wrote: post #45

"The Chamber therefore found reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant bear criminal responsibility for the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare." Whats perhaps interesting to note is that this charge was made for "just" 41 [1] confirmed starvation deaths among a population of 2,141,643 people [2]. Of course every death caused by intentional starvation is a severe crime and must be puni…

"confirmed" data from Gaza at the moment is unreliable. The people who were doing the counting have either been killed or cleansed from the area. The official death toll is still around 40k despite the reality being closer to 100-200k.

GP is not citing the ICC. The ICC never claims 41 deaths are confirmed. GP is citing a Wikipedia article which is undergoing an edit war. The Wikipedia page had cited 62,413 deaths and then was switched to a pro-Israel source that instead says "41+"

ICC never claimed only 41 deaths were confirmed

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#584

Post by rmbyrro »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #82

>In his first response to the ICC issuing a warrant for his arrest on allegations of war crimes, Benjamin Netanyahu’s office has described the ruling as “absurd and false lies” and said the decision is “antisemitic.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/nov/21/internati... If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have…

The Israeli will not recognize the authority of this ICC bench, because it's a politically motivated prosecution. They've lost before the trial even began.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#585

Post by culi »

bawolff wrote: post #166
peppers-ghost wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"confirmed" data from Gaza at the moment is unreliable. The people who were doing the counting have either been killed or cleansed from the area. The official death toll is still around 40k despite the reality being closer to 100-200k.

Regardless, total deaths don't matter, only deaths that were the result of crimes matter, in this context. Some of those deaths are going to be legal targets killed during combat, which is not evidence of a war crime. You have to split things out for the numbers to mean anything.

The ICC doesn't claim 41 deaths were the result of war crimes. That claim is made by an irrelevant Wikipedia article that is undergoing an edit war. It was recently switched from "62,413 conservative estimate" to "41+"

ICC doesn't claim how many deaths are due to war crimes. GP is purposefully sowing misinformation

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#586

Post by ignoramous »

gspencley wrote: post #506
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #82

>In his first response to the ICC issuing a warrant for his arrest on allegations of war crimes, Benjamin Netanyahu’s office has described the ruling as “absurd and false lies” and said the decision is “antisemitic.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/nov/21/internati... If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have…

> If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have your day in court and show how absurd the accusations are. I don't know if I agree with this. If the ICC is an honest organization that stands for individual rights, liberty and justice then sure. If, on the other hand, the ICC is a corrupt organization that invites the worst o…

> I don't have all of the facts when it comes to the ICC and its history. I know that it is separate from the UN, but I don't know very much about it. Therefore I don't know which alternative I ultimately land on.

If you can put in the time & effort required to make an empirical assessment of the ICC, go ahead and do so; then come back here and enlighten us all. Otherwise, this is just more of the same kind of denialism & deflection we're all too familiar with post WW2 from the many (and vocal) mass crime apologists.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#588

Post by mirchibajji »

Hikikomori wrote: post #468
mirchibajji wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is textbook whataboutism. I live in the UK. I'm outraged by how much time/money is spent on Israel and Ukraine issues than our own. Similar to yourself, I have to wonder why UK govt chose to help one side with weapons in these specific conflicts. The difference here is of course, protestors are there on their own free will (for the most part, I guess?), whilst I don't have a say in how my tax money is being used…

I mean if anyone is yo blame for the Israel situation it's the UK.

I mean, yes. I can understand why protests happen, because our own govt is not currently acting in our interests.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#589

Post by xg15 »

bawolff wrote: post #154

> The Chamber also noted that decisions allowing or increasing humanitarian assistance into Gaza were often conditional. They were not made to fulfil Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law or to ensure that the civilian population in Gaza would be adequately supplied with goods in need. In fact, they were a response to the pressure of the international community or requests by the United States of…

I think it does matter, because it's another indicator for intent.

If the starvation is a "simple" side-effect of the combat situation, but you're working actively to alleviate it on your own volition (by doing your best to let in aid organizations, etc) then it's obvious to see there is no intent to it.

If, on the other hand, you have to be pressured by the international community, including your closest allies for every tiny step in the direction of letting in aid, and you will immediately jump two steps back as soon as the pressure eases slightly, then it can be inferred that you really really want the starvation to happen and your only problem with the situation is getting away with it.

(Not even starting with all the government officials who spelled out the whole intent explicitly in public, documented quotes)

> Like if someone is accused of murder, but doesn't because a friend told them not to, we don't throw them in jail because they decided not to murder for the wrong reasons.

The problem is that the murder is happening here and the friend is trying - badly - to convince the person to pull out the knife.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#590

Post by vharuck »

bawolff wrote: post #549
vharuck wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel was expected, under international law, to unconditionally allow aid for the civilians. Israel used it as a bargaining chip, effectively holding civilians hostage.

This doesn't seem to match what the ICC is saying. I don't see anywhere that the icc accused Israel of using aid as a bargaining chip.

From the announcement:

>decisions allowing or increasing humanitarian assistance into Gaza were often conditional.

I may be misinterpreting legal jargon, but "conditional" implies Israel often didn't want to allow humanitarian assistance unless Israel received something. This isn't allowed under international law. Relevant excerpt from the announcement:

>This finding is based on the role of Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant in impeding humanitarian aid in violation of international humanitarian law and their failure to facilitate relief by all means at its disposal.

Parties to conflict are expected to facilitate aid, not just allow it, and definitely not set conditions.

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