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ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#541
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Stories about divisive topics are routinely flagged from all sides. It's common, if not inevitable, for people who feel strongly about $topic to conclude that the system (or the community, or the mods, etc.) are biased against their side ( https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... ). One is far more likely to notice whatever data points that one dislikes because they go against one's view and ov…

Add something to the page that indicates moderator intervention so we can see for ourselves. All we have is your word.

Aren't you tired of answering the same questions on every divisive thread?

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have your day in court and show how absurd the accusations are. I don't know if I agree with this. If the ICC is an honest organization that stands for individual rights, liberty and justice then sure. If, on the other hand, the ICC is a corrupt organization that invites the worst o…

what do you mean by 'invite to the table'? it's a criminal court, so it's going to deal with criminals you're also assuming that israel is a good faith actor in all of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court#I...

> what do you mean by 'invite to the table'? it's a criminal court, so it's going to deal with criminals

"Criminals" in this context is meaningless. Please hear me out.

We're dealing with the concept of "International Law", which is largely understood as agreements / treaties amongst different countries.

This means that those agreements are no more valid or better or righteous than the countries that enter into them. If the nations involved share certain basic principles and make an agreement that aligns with those principles, the enforcement of these "laws" would come from those nations that are party to the treaty.

BUT - if one nation changes its mind, or changes its internal laws or decides "nah, no thanks" then how do you enforce these so-called "laws"? Do the other nations declare war on this nation?

It gets even worse than that. Because the very concept of "International Law" contains a logical contradiction.

The idea is that we are going make war (force, violence, death, destruction, conflict) subject to some kind of rules. The problem is, you can't. You can have two parties to a conflict agree to certain things: like not to murder civilians, or prisoners etc. if it can be helped. But at the end of the day it's an agreement that doesn't have any kind of binding power or significance because the idea of war means that two groups have decided that they can't reach any kind of rational agreement and so they have resorted to violent conflict.

War, by definition, is the absence of law. The absence of reason. The breakdown of civilization. It comes about when two groups cannot reason with one another; cannot agree with one another on what the rules ought to be.

Law is not a concept that comes out of nowhere. It is the idea that in order to protect individual rights and liberty, the element of force and violence is going to be taken out of civil existence and placed into the hands of a monopoly: the government, which sets the rules and enforcement mechanisms around when force is and is not justifiable within their respective operating jurisdictions.

When you have multiple nations that operate independently, each with their own laws and rules, all you can do is get them to agree to certain things, as long as they have some basis upon which to enter into an agreement.

My thesis is that a free, rights-protecting nation has no basis for an agreement with a dictatorship that routinely violates peoples' rights. That the dictatorship has everything to gain by getting the free nation to agree to what its evil desires want, while the free nation has only things to lose (through compromise, which is part and parcel of coming to terms).

That's what I mean by "invite to the table."

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#543
post #37
post #20

When was the last time a head of state was arrested by the ICC?

Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic was arrested and deported by the government of Yugoslavia after him. Of course, under immense pressure from the west. My preference would be that we tried him under our courts and sent him to jail in Yugoslavia/Serbia. Now, imposing "justice" obviously only works when you do it to small nations like Yugoslavia or Rwanda. Of course it will not apply to the Israel leader, let alone…

He was a former head of state by then.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#544

>In his first response to the ICC issuing a warrant for his arrest on allegations of war crimes, Benjamin Netanyahu’s office has described the ruling as “absurd and false lies” and said the decision is “antisemitic.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/nov/21/internati... If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have…

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#545

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I generally agree with this take. The big problem with it is that the current and likely future israeli administrion(s) have as one of their largest goals the annexation of the west bank, not because of security but because they truly believe god gave them that land. IMO there is little reason to believe israelis will ever allow the palestinians full sovereignty in the west bank. So whats on the table for them in your situation? Probably giving up even more land in the west bank and the fear that israel can start a war to annex even more of it any time the israeli right wins an election. Which gets at the heart of the issue here, neither side has any reason to believe the other is negotiating in good faith, so negations can never really begin.

Ive spent a decent amount of time in Israel and my observation is that the prospect for peace is incredibly dim.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#547

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War at its core is not a murder contest. You have to be strategic and you have to deal with the reality of trying to govern any conquered subjects which historically hasn't been very successful in the long term. In a globally connected world, you have to deal with the rest of the planet reacting to your actions.

That's not even touching on concepts like human rights and international law.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#549

> The Chamber also noted that decisions allowing or increasing humanitarian assistance into Gaza were often conditional. They were not made to fulfil Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law or to ensure that the civilian population in Gaza would be adequately supplied with goods in need. In fact, they were a response to the pressure of the international community or requests by the United States of…

Israel was expected, under international law, to unconditionally allow aid for the civilians. Israel used it as a bargaining chip, effectively holding civilians hostage.

This doesn't seem to match what the ICC is saying. I don't see anywhere that the icc accused Israel of using aid as a bargaining chip.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#550

>In his first response to the ICC issuing a warrant for his arrest on allegations of war crimes, Benjamin Netanyahu’s office has described the ruling as “absurd and false lies” and said the decision is “antisemitic.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/nov/21/internati... If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have…

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