Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

newscenter.lbl.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 102 posts

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#71

Post by Polizeiposaune »

euroderf wrote: post #65
bluGill wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is very little shipping between us ports. Not zero, but not much.

Speculation: this system propped up by the long-distance trucking lobby.

Longshoreman's union "touch fees" reportedly have a lot to do with it:

https://capitalresearch.org/article/what-you-need-to-know-ab...

https://twitter.com/johnkonrad/status/1840904466310316459

" it’s somehow cheaper to truck containers hundreds of miles and let taxpayers foot the road repair bill than let the union touch it two more times for short sea shipping to work."

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#72

Post by DanielHB »

elzbardico wrote: post #45

A Lithium fire battery in a cruise ship in the middle of the Pacific would be a truly unique experience.

The ship would need to be designed around it, but the battery could be set up in a way to allow it to burn out without affecting the rest of the ship at all, it is not that hard to isolate a battery from the rest of the system.

Although it would be better if the battery is at the bottom of the ship so there would also need to be some sort of air exhaust system for when that happens, hopefully one that prevents the fumes from reaching the passengers at all but I don't think that would be possible without a chimney.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#73

Post by 1234letshaveatw »

Polizeiposaune wrote: post #52
mcswell wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost as bad as a fuel oil fire on a cruise ship.

Lithium batteries are more prone to self-immolation/thermal runaway; heavy fuel oils aren't prone to spontaneous ignition at typical temperatures & pressures.

I would think that preventative measures would be much easier to realize on big ships with lower density demands

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#74

Post by thworp »

DanielHB wrote: post #70

I wonder how viable an autonomous single-container electric cargo ship would be, instead of massive ships you could have thousands of tiny ones. With automated loading/unloading it could massively simplify logistics A solar panel covering the ship and one of those flaps to generate power from wind with a EV-scale battery could be enough for containers moving light non-time-sensitive stuff. Probably wouldn't be able t…

While I don't have any deep foundational knowledge, I do know that:

- the energy required for moving in a fluid grows sub-linear with the vessel's volume

- larger motors tend to be more efficient

- your autonomous swarm will be a gigantic waste of steel and batteries.

Not to mention the problems around the autonomous part, without which you'd also have a huge waste of manpower.

See also https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/38252/why-on... for some points by people I assume know a bit more than me.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#75

Post by dghlsakjg »

nominatronic wrote: post #31

> The researchers analyzed US-flagged ships less than 1,000 gross tonnage, which includes primarily passenger ships and three types of tugboats. This is the buried lede. They are excluding basically all cargo shipping. - Very little of the shipping industry is US-flagged. Most commercial ships sail under flags of convenience such as Panama and Libera, because of their reduced regulations and costs. - Nobody carries c…

Until we can find a battery with the energy density of fuel oil, then it isn't possible to transport sea cargo on batteries.

Fuel oil is approximately 80x the energy per KG when compared to lithium.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#76

Post by dghlsakjg »

euroderf wrote: post #65
bluGill wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is very little shipping between us ports. Not zero, but not much.

Speculation: this system propped up by the long-distance trucking lobby.

The Jones act goes back to before the existence of long distance trucking, and has so many interested parties just on the maritime side that it will take a shift in world order for it to change.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#77

Post by exhilaration »

hwillis wrote: post #3

Wow, this is a really good paper. Supplementary info is really great too- they get into details down to floating charging port stations as part of the infrastructure. Surprising how much demand is from tugboats. I have questions about how you'd safely hook up 5 MW connections, but it's definitely solvable.

The Maid of the Mist boats at Niagara Falls have been fully electric since 2023: https://www.maidofthemist.com/maid-of-the-mist-sets-the-stan... They don't talk too much about battery capacity or charging but I'm sure the information is out there.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#78

Post by AlotOfReading »

m463 wrote: post #62
nick3443 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going fast in water takes incredible amounts of power.

I don't know why hydrofoils aren't more popular

Because they're expensive and unreliable for most applications. They need more power, they increase draft, they don't tolerate debris, and they really dislike rough seas.

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#79

Post by euroderf »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #76
euroderf wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speculation: this system propped up by the long-distance trucking lobby.

The Jones act goes back to before the existence of long distance trucking, and has so many interested parties just on the maritime side that it will take a shift in world order for it to change.

"Son, custody of the Jones Act has been passed down from technology generation to technology generation..."

Re: Exploring the Cost and Feasibility of Battery-Electric Ships

#80

Post by ajford »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #19
tonymet wrote: post #2

Ferry service in the Puget Sound (Seattle Area) has suffered due to delays with electric ferries. The state refuses to maintain their existing fleet. Every line has frequent delays, and the international route which was suspended for “a couple years” in 2021 is now delayed until 2030. The frustration people have with electric isn’t the technology – it’s the dogmatic commitment to technology that isn’t quite ready, ba…

The frustration should be that in the US management is functionally incompetent. Proposal: If we do it this way we won't have to spend as much money. Counter: That's really hinky and it probably will blow up in our face. Proposal: Yes but you can't prove it will. So it's what we're going to do. Later: Blows up and goes over budget and takes two to three times longer.

It also doesn't help that the bid/contract process is skewed to select the lowest bidder.

You can always forget to add some margin here or there, or fail to plan for problems that might pop up. It's easy to game the system because sunk costs make it nearly impossible to switch once you've started.

Post reply on HN