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Why don't you move abroad?

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Re: Why don't you move abroad?

#111

Post by david-gpu »

tjah1087 wrote: post #108
david-gpu wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never met anyone that regretted on "traveling too much". And yet you eventually decided that it wasn't for you and you chose to go back home. There are pros and cons to all possibilities, whether it is staying put, traveling as a tourist, or immigrating in a foreign country. People rarely grasp the true costs of immigrating until it is too late -- I've seen several remarkably similar examples.

“Why do you go away? So that you can come back. So that you can see the place you came from with new eyes and extra colors. And the people there see you differently, too. Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving.” ― Terry Pratchett, A Hat Full of Sky

That assumes that you come back.

What happens most commonly is that after some time abroad you marry (usually a foreigner) and have children who belong where they were born. What now? I speak from experience.

I wish people would pause for a moment before universally recommending something that they either have not experienced, or they have gotten away from. Such as Terry Pratchett, who never even lived abroad!

Re: Why don't you move abroad?

#112

Post by yen223 »

david-gpu wrote: post #109
viraptor wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"move out in their 20s-30s, see the world" does not mean "move abroad permanently". The author also didn't say it wasn't great, just that they prefered home.

Look, I speak from my own experience and what I have seen in others: young people being told that moving abroad is such a great experience and all that. The reality is that most of those people who move abroad hoping for a better future do not understand what they are really getting into -- I know I didn't. In other words, I am trying to kindly offer a more nuanced take on what moving abroad entails. Not everybody is…

It is much better that the young person tries it and decides it's not for them, than for the young person to never try and to have that doubt gnawing at them for the rest of their life.

Re: Why don't you move abroad?

#113

Post by em-bee »

david-gpu wrote: post #109
viraptor wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"move out in their 20s-30s, see the world" does not mean "move abroad permanently". The author also didn't say it wasn't great, just that they prefered home.

Look, I speak from my own experience and what I have seen in others: young people being told that moving abroad is such a great experience and all that. The reality is that most of those people who move abroad hoping for a better future do not understand what they are really getting into -- I know I didn't. In other words, I am trying to kindly offer a more nuanced take on what moving abroad entails. Not everybody is…

so it makes sense that you feel like that, but please don't try to justify your experience by claiming that everyone else feels the same.

i left when i was young and it was the greatest experience ever. i would not miss it for the world. but my motivation was not money, it was learning. when i stop learning where i am, then i move on.

eventually i may move back to where i am from, not because it's not working out or because it would have been a mistake, but because i have run out of places to go to and also because it's time to give back.

i am now old enough that i can use my experience to influence the next generation back home to open their mind more towards the world.

Re: Why don't you move abroad?

#114

Post by dpeckett »

gtvwill wrote: post #53

Currently looking at moving overseas. Live in aus and the place is politically an authoritarian corprotocracy with unaffordable living even on a decent wage. Looking to get out. We don't need much and are both fairly handy (in all forms of life) so we are considering a run down property in Europe. We could literally buy a dump,do it up and go off grid with solar and still come out ahead for 50% of the price for a avg…

Yeh nah mate, I'd recommend moving to the middle of nowhere in Aus over a low cost region in the EU. You really want to be in a long term growth environment (even if you're starting off at the bottom) than some decaying, economically deprived region. There's no free lunch in the western world.

I'm an Aussie living in a relatively low cost region in the EU, I moved here for career and networking/ecosystem reasons. That aspect of the move have definitely paid off in multiples but there's no doubt that QoL is significantly lower here and the tax rates on income are double what you are used to (a lot goes to social programs that as an immigrant you have limited entitlement to).

Re: Why don't you move abroad?

#115

Post by david-gpu »

yen223 wrote: post #112
david-gpu wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I speak from my own experience and what I have seen in others: young people being told that moving abroad is such a great experience and all that. The reality is that most of those people who move abroad hoping for a better future do not understand what they are really getting into -- I know I didn't. In other words, I am trying to kindly offer a more nuanced take on what moving abroad entails. Not everybody is…

It is much better that the young person tries it and decides it's not for them, than for the young person to never try and to have that doubt gnawing at them for the rest of their life.

And why would that doubt be gnawing at them for the rest of their life? Do you think it is possible that all the rah-rah "moving abroad is great" messaging could have something to do with it?

Moving abroad is often a choice. Moving back can be a lot harder once you have a spouse and children.

Re: Why don't you move abroad?

#116

Post by david-gpu »

em-bee wrote: post #113
david-gpu wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I speak from my own experience and what I have seen in others: young people being told that moving abroad is such a great experience and all that. The reality is that most of those people who move abroad hoping for a better future do not understand what they are really getting into -- I know I didn't. In other words, I am trying to kindly offer a more nuanced take on what moving abroad entails. Not everybody is…

so it makes sense that you feel like that, but please don't try to justify your experience by claiming that everyone else feels the same. i left when i was young and it was the greatest experience ever. i would not miss it for the world. but my motivation was not money, it was learning. when i stop learning where i am, then i move on. eventually i may move back to where i am from, not because it's not working out or…

> so it makes sense that you feel like that, but please don't try to justify your experience by claiming that everyone else feels the same

I beg your pardon? Let me quote the very first comment I made in this thread.

>>>> There are pros and cons to all possibilities, whether it is staying put, traveling as a tourist, or immigrating in a foreign country.

This is in contrast to some of the claims made by others in this thread, such as:

> I always say to younger people that they should try to move out in their 20s-30s, see the world

> in my opinion everyone should spend at least one year abroad somewhere just for the experience.

That said, I am glad things are working out for you. I am just trying to warn people that immigration also has its downsides in spite of popular memes.

Just for curiosity, did you marry abroad? Have children abroad? Did your parents die while you lived there?

Re: Why don't you move abroad?

#117

Post by em-bee »

yen223 wrote: post #112
david-gpu wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I speak from my own experience and what I have seen in others: young people being told that moving abroad is such a great experience and all that. The reality is that most of those people who move abroad hoping for a better future do not understand what they are really getting into -- I know I didn't. In other words, I am trying to kindly offer a more nuanced take on what moving abroad entails. Not everybody is…

It is much better that the young person tries it and decides it's not for them, than for the young person to never try and to have that doubt gnawing at them for the rest of their life.

exactly, it is an experience that will shape their lives. in my opinion everyone should spend at least one year abroad somewhere just for the experience.

i spent 11th grade as an exchange student, so when i got a job abroad years later, i knew what i was getting into.

in between i volunteered for IAESTE, an organization that helps students get internships abroad because i believed that it would be a valuable experience more students should be able to benefit from.

Re: Why don't you move abroad?

#118

Post by weatherlite »

hshshshshsh wrote: post #4

To people who are considering moving abroad you should do it. Don't let nationalism stop you. You were randomly born in your country. Choose your country. Don't let randomness and some emotional baggage control where you want to live. You have a finite live. Make most of it.

> To people who are considering moving abroad you should do it.

Or not. What kind of general advice is this. It depends on so many factors - your age, marital status, how close you are to your family and culture. For many people, I think for the majority even, unless they live in a war torn area then staying put makes a lot of sense.

> Don't let randomness and some emotional baggage control where you want to live

Yes family and culture is an emotional baggage and we are emotional beings, we are not robots. Most people care to a certain degree about those things.

Re: Why don't you move abroad?

#119

Post by hshshshshsh »

weatherlite wrote: post #118
hshshshshsh wrote: post #4

To people who are considering moving abroad you should do it. Don't let nationalism stop you. You were randomly born in your country. Choose your country. Don't let randomness and some emotional baggage control where you want to live. You have a finite live. Make most of it.

> To people who are considering moving abroad you should do it. Or not. What kind of general advice is this. It depends on so many factors - your age, marital status, how close you are to your family and culture. For many people, I think for the majority even, unless they live in a war torn area then staying put makes a lot of sense. > Don't let randomness and some emotional baggage control where you want to live Yes…

If staying makes sense then stay. If you want to move then move. My argument is don't let random beliefs and emotions stand in between.

Re: Why don't you move abroad?

#120

Post by svilen_dobrev »

in 1998, being 30ish, i moved from east europe to oz. Many friends already did that, so i tried too. Took like 2+ years of pingpongs, until oz granted me visa.

People asked me why moving out. i said: to see how it is like - Living elsewhere. (i was thinking only geography then, but.. happened culturally it is even farther). They did not accept that as answer.

Fiancee came (after 18 months instead of 3, thanks to usa bombing belgrade). We stood in oz further 1.5 years. Got a newborn baby.. and Then decided to call it over and move back home - kids needs dense society to become a person, and there wasn't much of it in oz. Or so we thought was the reason.

People asked me why moving back. i said: to see how it is like - Going back. They did not accept that as answer.

10 years later, 2012, one day i went to oz again. Trying to fullfill that then-paused dream. Took me 3 months to grasp the new (harsher) reality - which was actually an uncovered unglittered same old one - and one day, after watching Sacrifice by Tarkovsky, abandoned the oz-dream alltogether. It's not worth it, it's really like living upside-down - for me. Or inside-out.. Cultural differences are staggering. Moved back home.

(same) People asked me why. Answer - i am choosing where to live, by my standards. Not somebody elses. After being to quite few places@continents.. would try only 1-2 of those. The rest.. aren't for me. People would nod. Maybe we all got wiser..

My advice to young people: go around the world early enough. Check Different places.. Culturally. Find what your values are. Decide where you fit best and want to be. Who to become. May check Hofstede's cultural dimensions [0] below - but remember some values stay, some change, and you do not know which, beforehand. Values are like a skyline.. the further you go, the more you see and understand which is really high/low and which is just a hill/puddle.

A friend told me that there's an inscription on some Amsterdam bridge which can be translated as "coming back is not the same as staying". It is really so.

And.. Money are the lubricant, NOT the fuel. Wish/motivation is the fuel.

[0] https://www.theculturefactor.com/country-comparison-tool

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