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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#711
post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just made the case for some flavor or another of socialism.

You mean like the police in America? Or elementary and high school? Or fire brigades, interstate highways, border security or the thousands of other things you rely on every single day that are 100% socialism.

Yes but some people need regularly-scheduled reminding.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#712
post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

A $100k pickup isn't a regular pickup, anymore than an $80k sedan is a regular sedan. It's gotta be more expensive than 95% of the pickups on the road. If it gets 11 mpg it must have a really beefy engine and be geared for towing. If it uses premium fuel, it's one of the badged models likely.

One thing that's odd about the pickup market is it isn't segmented into low tier/mid tier/luxury tier the way other vehicles are. The luxury version of a Toyota is a Lexus. The luxury version of an F-150 is still an F-150, just a different badge level. Your friend's is a luxury pickup.

If what you do 5% of the time absolutely requires a truck, you don't have many options. You can't rent a truck to tow easily and affordably. There are commercial truck rental places that do have vehicles you can tow with but if you're doing that even 2 days a month you might as well just buy the damn pickup.

And I'd focus on median prices a lot more than mean, though I'm sure there's an increase in that too.

Also, we drive a lot more miles than almost anyone, our gasoline is cheaper, our incomes are higher, and our cars last very long times and are safer than ever now. The average car is over a decade old now. When I was a kid, you got lucky if your odometer hit six figures, in fact some didn't even have that many digits! And I'm not that old.

The American car market is perhaps the best example of an efficient, highly competitive, well-regulated marketplace. Whatever the average price is, it's what it should be.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#713
post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several vehicle models such as the Tesla Model 3 which have >70% North American parts content. https://www.nhtsa.gov/part-583-american-automobile-labeling-...

Ah, I used a third party source which was missing the Model 3 Long Range specifically, which is 75%. Maybe it was not listed because it is limited to that one trim. Then there's the Model Y and the Model 3 Performance at 70%. All other American brand vehicles are The top vehicle from the big 3 is the Ford F150 at a whopping 45% US/Canada. My point is that if you buy any car in the US, you are buying a vehicle with si…

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's never been illegal to produce small cars in the US I think they're referring to the practice of making cars larger to pass as trucks so they are faced with more lax fuel-efficiency standards.

Even without the bogus classifications, the EPA emissions regulations are inversely proportional to the footprint of the car. That rewards manufacturers for not offering small cars. The "light truck" designation is made on the basis of features like cargo capacity and ground clearance. The Subaru Outback was properly classified as a car until the smaller PT Cruiser got its truck designation and they justifiably compl…

... yet the Outback is still around and the PT Cruiser is not. Why? Well, the Outback has a thousand tiny details that add up to make it a very useful vehicle, while the PT Cruiser was all about exploiting nostalgia and finding regulatory loopholes to create/increase profit margin.

It's almost like there is a lesson to be learned. Make a "cheap" electric car worth buying, and people will buy it.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#715
post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that new cars are safe cars. Old cars are death traps. If you value your life you will be buying the new shiny every 5 years or less.

It is one of those 'was it really that long ago? I am getting old' moments to actually look this up, but the last major safety features which moved the needle on keeping you alive in a car were the mandates for side-impact protection and anti-lock braking systems. Both are more than ten years old. I think you would be hard-pressed to name a single innovation from the past five years which has increased your lifespan…

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#716
post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

City dwellers will spend $2500 a month for 400 sq feet of rented living space and laugh at people paying $50k for a car.

You said it yourself — their dwelling is the entire city. Those 400sqft are where they sleep and relax but most of their living probably happens outside. Different strokes and all that.

If you are going to count where they live to be the whole city, you should increase the rent they pay to cover the cost of the third spaces they use in the cities as well.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they produce higher tire and brake particulates which are known to cause health issues Interesting you mention tire particulates, because there is nothing worse for this than - brace yourself - electric vehicles. https://grist.org/transportation/electric-vehicles-are-a-cli...

I didn't realize ICE vehicles don't have tires. News to me. There is a slight increase in tire particulates, sure. A small increase. There's also a lot less brake particulates. And get this: there's no tailpipe emissions either.

A slight increase? Particulates increase with the 4th power of weight, and EVs way a significant amount more.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I don’t understand the advantage of EVs really. Isn’t a plug in hybrid the best option? You can do everyday short trips on battery but also have the gas engine for longer trips. Sure it is more complicated but Toyota has shown that you can make this super reliable.

I'm 100% with you. Dodge has the 2025 ramcharger which has amazing specs! 690 mile range, 14,000lb towing capacity, 663 hp, etc. etc. I've got reservations about dodge, and reservations about the first year of the model from any manufactuerer. Otherwise, I'd gladly shell out 70k+ and my left nut to get one. I really wish more manufacturers would go this direction. I've got no interest in 100% EV, because I do things…

not a PHEV, but I've been incredibly happy with the 2023 F-150 Powerboost. It's a Mild hybrid system, with great towing capacity, power & torque. Does not sound quite as "stout" as the Dodge, but like you I have my reservations about the brand.

I've been Using it as a honest work truck in the civil engineering / construction world, and have been able to get 600 miles from a tank without trying too hard. I've seen plenty of short (~20 mile) trips nearing 30mpg, which is above stated estimates. 23-25mpg for mixed use driving off road, on road, idling, etc. I'm on jobsites a lot, and just even having working AC / full host of accessories with the ICE engine powered down, acting as a generator when needed, is a big quality of life upgrade.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With this kind of setup you can stay connected to the grid. In the event that your solar and storage fail unexpectedly you can still pay for grid electricity.

The grid you've been refusing to pay to support for years, that grid is going to be your backup?

You still pay service fees to maintain a grid connection. Not to mention that many people with these setups contribute excess generation back to the grid or allow their batteries to discharged by the grid during demand spikes.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll find most normal people find PHEVs extremely attractive propositions that are a perfect compromise between ICE and EVs.

I'm waiting for an EREV midsize SUV. EREV sounds like the ideal layout as opposed to HEV and PHEV which sound mechanically over complicated with too many components that can go wrong. The new Dodge Ramcharger sounds amazing but I don't want a pickup and it's way outside of my price point.

An SUV version of ramcharger is very appealing
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