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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#661

Post by pentae »

llm_trw wrote: post #613
JeremyNT wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think part of it is how darned long cars last now. I have an 18 year old car that I purchased used long ago and currently has no mechanical issues. I've had a few repairs but nothing terribly expensive. I have no interest in replacing it. When you think about it, people who are frugal will buy practical and cost effective cars and drive them for a decade or more (that is, if they buy a car at all!). That means t…

The difference is that new cars are safe cars. Old cars are death traps. If you value your life you will be buying the new shiny every 5 years or less.

Seems like the kind of advice that was true up until about 10 years ago

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#662

Post by jerf »

Majromax wrote: post #354
jerf wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the best understandings of inflation is to use the mathematical concept of "equality" on those. They're two ways of phrasing the same thing. A lot of people do a lot of bad thinking when they say "oh, well, inflation is umptybumpkins percent, so the fact that cars are that much more expensive is 'just' inflation, and thus isn't anything". But inflation is prices going up. When the various sources release "how…

> One of the best understandings of inflation is to use the mathematical concept of "equality" on those. They're two ways of phrasing the same thing. They're not quite the same thing. All other things equal, if a price increase is "just" inflation then it takes the same number of hours of work to buy the car (or equivalently, the car is worth the same number of loaves of bread). The alternative is that car prices hav…

First, there's a reason I said "One of the best".

Second, if you wrap inflation into your salary like that you are obscuring some important aspects of inflation, most especially the various lag effects that result in your salary being the last thing to update.

While understanding "purchasing power" (the term for what you are trying to describe) is important, it doesn't mean inflation is non-existent. It still has effects on savings, effects on assets, effects due to the aforementioned delays as it flows through the economy, and is in general not something you should view as any sort of "cancelling" like that, or, if you do, only as a final result, not an excuse to just wave it away like it's all just an artifact.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#663

Post by klooney »

SoftTalker wrote: post #428
klooney wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The small hatch EVs have generally had ~200 mile ranges, which is a little tough

If the cost is low enough, compromise on range becomes acceptable. I might buy a small, cheap EV that has range enough to handle my typical daily driving. But if I'm paying Tesla prices, it will need range to handle virtually all of my driving.

I mean, this is the Nissan Leaf- lightly used ones are really cheap.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#664

Post by fragmede »

evgen wrote: post #650
llm_trw wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that new cars are safe cars. Old cars are death traps. If you value your life you will be buying the new shiny every 5 years or less.

It is one of those 'was it really that long ago? I am getting old' moments to actually look this up, but the last major safety features which moved the needle on keeping you alive in a car were the mandates for side-impact protection and anti-lock braking systems. Both are more than ten years old. I think you would be hard-pressed to name a single innovation from the past five years which has increased your lifespan…

AEB is pretty recent, though I'm not sure of the exact timeline, and it has already saved lives.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#665

Post by klooney »

darknavi wrote: post #548
klooney wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The small hatch EVs have generally had ~200 mile ranges, which is a little tough

That'd be perfect for me to be honest. We have a Tesla Model Y which we can road trip in. I'm just looking for a slick, efficient commuter. I normally only charge my Model 3 to ~60%, which is ~150 miles of range anyways.

Have you considered a Leaf? They've been around forever, with around 200 miles of range.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#666

Post by klooney »

bluGill wrote: post #475
datavirtue wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever gotten behind a diesel truck with emissions deleted? I have...a lot. The roll coal crowd doesn't have EV on their radar whatsoever.

That isn't quite true. They are aware of EV trucks - they won't buy one of course, but they are aware. They spread stories about those trucks not having any useful range (which is true - when pulling a trailer or driving well over the speed limit the EVs lose range) Those diesel trucks they drive get 600 miles unloaded.

I think the Cybertruck has a lot of crossover appeal.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#667

Post by fragmede »

LeafItAlone wrote: post #616
ac29 wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans won't buy cheap cars Sure they will, they'll even buy cheap EVs. The highest lifetime EV sales in the US is the Leaf, Model 3/Y, and Bolt. They aren't at the top of the list because they're the best cars on the market, but because they are the cheapest.

>The highest lifetime EV sales in the US is the Leaf, Model 3/Y, and Bolt. The cheapest Model 3 is $42,500. The cheapest Model Y is $45,000. Is that cheap? The Leaf ($30,000) and Bolt ($27,500) are cheap_er_ (by a lot), but they are still not what I (and presumably parent) would consider cheap.

What do consider affordable? There are cheaper cars out there, a Kia Forte will run you $21k, but a new entry-level Honda Civic is $25k, with options it'll get above $30k.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#668

Post by fragmede »

afavour wrote: post #632
itsoktocry wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

City dwellers will spend $2500 a month for 400 sq feet of rented living space and laugh at people paying $50k for a car.

I don’t think that’s a good comparison. If you’re buying a car primarily for commuting a $10k car is going to achieve that purpose just as well as a $50k car. But $2500 on a small apartment in a city gives a very different lifestyle than one in a big house in the suburbs. I’m not going to make a value judgement either way there but there is a clear difference in functional result.

It's not though. Going from a bare bones $10k car to a more expensive car that drives itself on the freeway is a huge difference. It's less effort to get from A to B in a car that has L2.5 self-driving like Ford's blue cruise. How tired you are after three hours of driving a shitty car with a bad wheel alignment so you have to jerk the wheel every once in a while to keep it on track, vs a new luxury car that keeps itself in the lane so you don't have to steer, makes a huge difference if you want to be useful when you get there.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#669

Post by c22 »

epistasis wrote: post #425
asciimov wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's too bad that the only people benefiting from all green power subsidies are the people that least need them. We should be investing solar in lower income communities, as those people could really use cheaper utilities, and any saving they get would immediately go back into their communities.

That's an odd way of looking at it. Those who are most able to pay for it are those who are paying for the highest initial costs, lowering the costs for everyone else by improvements in the technology, and making it easier for others to adopt later. Early adopters take lots of risk on things not working out well, and learning what things can go wrong and how to fix them (at additional expense, too.) This is much bett…

Those who are most able to pay for it likely have larger energy footprints too, so it's possible prioritizing this demographic gives you more bang for your buck in emissions reductions.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#670

Post by potato3732842 »

llm_trw wrote: post #613
JeremyNT wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think part of it is how darned long cars last now. I have an 18 year old car that I purchased used long ago and currently has no mechanical issues. I've had a few repairs but nothing terribly expensive. I have no interest in replacing it. When you think about it, people who are frugal will buy practical and cost effective cars and drive them for a decade or more (that is, if they buy a car at all!). That means t…

The difference is that new cars are safe cars. Old cars are death traps. If you value your life you will be buying the new shiny every 5 years or less.

Everyone says this but the number of accidents (of which injurious, let alone fatal ones are a small minority) the typical person gets into in a lifetime are low enough to make the tradeoff worthwhile.
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