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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#641

Post by throwawaymaths »

kube-system wrote: post #558
throwawaymaths wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

demonstrably false. Unless you think they're lying, they have something like ~47k preorders registered. If even 75% of those preorders flake, that's something like 2 years of manufacturing pipeline and sales, if they manage to get the first stage factory they want.

'Hundreds' was a bit of hyperbole, but it ain't far off. 47k in 100 countries, they say. These are $100 fully refundable 'preorders', so they're more like placeholders in line than anything else. They will absolutely have a high attrition rate because most of them are speculatory. And of small number that are serious -- how many of those are in a regulatory region where they will be launching? ...and in a way that th…

The cybertruck also went up in price by 50k? IIRC from promised. I bet a lot of the flakes couldn't justify the extra cost. Sure the aptera has gone up from 28k? to 37k? but

1. That's likely a high water mark estimate

2. An extra 10k is easier to come up with, not to mention generally cars in that price range going up by about 5k anyways

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#642

Post by grecy »

euroderf wrote: post #564
comte7092 wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grudges are valid. The default in America is to make everything out to be individualistic, but the rest of us have to bear the very real costs of the externality of pickups, not just limited to pollution but also safety, land use, etc.

I think you just made the case for some flavor or another of socialism.

You mean like the police in America? Or elementary and high school? Or fire brigades, interstate highways, border security or the thousands of other things you rely on every single day that are 100% socialism.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#643

Post by rantingdemon »

knowitnone wrote: post #378

After reading some of the comments, the next questions, why are automakers not building plants in Africa? Cheap labor force, cheap land, probably needs education and training. China is courting Africa, is the US?

In South Africa as far as I know we are already building cars for export markets.

This being

- VW - Mercedes Benz - Ford - BMW

(I think there may be a couple more).

Point being is that there are already some plants in "Africa".

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#644

Post by yftsui »

m463 wrote: post #637
JeremyNT wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think part of it is how darned long cars last now. I have an 18 year old car that I purchased used long ago and currently has no mechanical issues. I've had a few repairs but nothing terribly expensive. I have no interest in replacing it. When you think about it, people who are frugal will buy practical and cost effective cars and drive them for a decade or more (that is, if they buy a car at all!). That means t…

I think of the last generation of pro-level film cameras. They were expensive, but well designed and durable, yet ... who wants to pay in time and money to develop film every 36 pictures? I think some really good gas cars only make sense if you use them infrequently to haul heavy things or lots of passengers. Otherwise it is getting cheaper to run an EV - you might even charge it with electricity you capture yourself…

Develop film takes time, same as why somebody wait for hours and hours just to get an EV charged? The “last generation” can “recharge” to 450miles in 3 minutes at a gas station then move on.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#645

Post by grecy »

asciimov wrote: post #329
GratiaTerra wrote: post #248

I took advantage of the IRA solar power and $7500 EV credit, now I have an off grid home all electric appliances and excess power for hot tubs and EV's. The Ford Lightning acts as a generator. This was the greatest most life changing and impactful legistlation ever: I've had $0 (ZERO!) in gasoline, LP, and electric utility bills since installation last year.

It's too bad that the only people benefiting from all green power subsidies are the people that least need them. We should be investing solar in lower income communities, as those people could really use cheaper utilities, and any saving they get would immediately go back into their communities.

In canada the lower your income the higher the grant for solar and things like insulation and window upgrades, heat pumps, etc.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#646

Post by solardev »

lelanthran wrote: post #619
solardev wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half of America doesn't want to support the incoming administration either, and Musk has decided to closely and personally align himself with it. I wonder if that will affect Tesla sales.

> Half of America doesn't want to support the incoming administration Hasn't that been true for every US presidential election?

I don't remember the 90s being this polarizing. Sure, people made fun of blowjobs in the White House, but it didn't feel like we were always on the precipice of civil war and societal collapse. Even Bush and Obama weren't so divisive. Yeah, people always had their political preferences, but there used to be such a thing as a shared American identity to some degree, especially in the post-9/11 years. Not these days.

As an independent, it's especially discouraging. I don't see many level-headed voters or politicians anymore, and a lot of the basic governmental services and protections seem to be collapsing while we focus on culture wars. We can't even work together as a country to discuss something as boring yet important as energy policy. Who knew battery-powered cars could be so divisive. Everything is weaponized now.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#647

Post by grecy »

datavirtue wrote: post #367
klooney wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is good, we don't want electric cars to become a culture war issue

Have you ever gotten behind a diesel truck with emissions deleted? I have...a lot. The roll coal crowd doesn't have EV on their radar whatsoever.

Which is fine. Deleted trucks are already illegal, and soon enough you won’t be able to buy a new ICE vehicle. They will be gone in my lifetime.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#648

Post by [deleted] »

joyeuse6701 wrote: post #593
FactKnower69 wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're an American wondering why you're forced to buy shitty overpriced Teslas instead of those $15k BYD Dolphins, here's Janet Yellen screeching about how unfair it is that China uses its labor force to manufacture consumer goods instead of creating millions of bullshit make-work financialization jobs like good liberal democracies https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/yellen-intends-warn-...

I have a feeling that if BYD was a Taiwanese company it’d be fine, could there be a concern with the Xi government’s bellicosity?

[deleted]

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#649

Post by presentation »

ailun wrote: post #607
ricardobeat wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current average monthly salary in China is $3000-$4000 US dollars. This is not about cheap labour anymore but simple economies of scale. The whole talk about subsidies is pure smoke screen. US automakers have received a lot more subsidies than their Chinese counterparts. The top chinese firm receiving government subsidies, CATL, got ~$500M USD last year. BYD is said to have received $3.5 billion in total in its l…

> The current average monthly salary in China is $3000-$4000 US dollars. Source, please. I do not believe this.

Yeah doesn’t look true, median is more like $800 for those in private companies.

https://finance.sina.cn/2024-05-19/detail-inavuhsp2237661.d....

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#650

Post by evgen »

llm_trw wrote: post #613
JeremyNT wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think part of it is how darned long cars last now. I have an 18 year old car that I purchased used long ago and currently has no mechanical issues. I've had a few repairs but nothing terribly expensive. I have no interest in replacing it. When you think about it, people who are frugal will buy practical and cost effective cars and drive them for a decade or more (that is, if they buy a car at all!). That means t…

The difference is that new cars are safe cars. Old cars are death traps. If you value your life you will be buying the new shiny every 5 years or less.

It is one of those 'was it really that long ago? I am getting old' moments to actually look this up, but the last major safety features which moved the needle on keeping you alive in a car were the mandates for side-impact protection and anti-lock braking systems. Both are more than ten years old.

I think you would be hard-pressed to name a single innovation from the past five years which has increased your lifespan in a car as either a driver or a passenger. Given the fact that things like adaptive braking, lane-following assist, and blind-spot sensors are old enough to be showing up in low-end cars these days I cannot name a single new or shiny safety feature which would not be available in a mid-tier car from 2014. Can you?

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