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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#611

Post by worik »

slices wrote: post #230
yurishimo wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit of EVs comparatively is that the drivetrain is much simpler than an ICE vehicle. If a motor dies, unbolt it and swap in a new one. Same thing for the battery pack. Sure, it's inconvenient, but if these Chinese companies are willing to offer the same warranties as American manufacturers, then what's the problem?

if your cheap Chinese EV starts on fire and burns down your house, it might not have been such a good deal

if your expensive Tesla starts on fire and burns down your house, it might not have been such a good idea

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#612

Post by sgerenser »

mrguyorama wrote: post #439
robertlagrant wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that possible? What's it doing that ICE cars can't do on a highway?

The ICE engine in a Prius is a special branch of tech that is more efficient at the cost of basically kneecapped performance. Americans cannot stand needing a full ten seconds to get onto the highway, because we all drive like a bunch of roided up chimps who refuse to move over to give the merging onramp any room. For two decades there has been a roughly free 5% or so in fuel economy available to any ICE car if only…

The latest Prius Prime can do 0-60 in 6.7 seconds. It’s no muscle car but that’s hardly “kneecapped performance.”

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#613

Post by llm_trw »

JeremyNT wrote: post #561
bluGill wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some Americans. The average car in the US is 12 years old. I just checked my local craigslist, most cars of that age are under 10k, and almost none are more than 20k. Since that is average we can assume cars of that age will run (with maintenance) for another decade and so shouldn't be very expensive. Of course at that age almost nothing is electric.

I do think part of it is how darned long cars last now. I have an 18 year old car that I purchased used long ago and currently has no mechanical issues. I've had a few repairs but nothing terribly expensive. I have no interest in replacing it. When you think about it, people who are frugal will buy practical and cost effective cars and drive them for a decade or more (that is, if they buy a car at all!). That means t…

The difference is that new cars are safe cars. Old cars are death traps.

If you value your life you will be buying the new shiny every 5 years or less.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#614

Post by 616c »

llm_trw wrote: post #613
JeremyNT wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think part of it is how darned long cars last now. I have an 18 year old car that I purchased used long ago and currently has no mechanical issues. I've had a few repairs but nothing terribly expensive. I have no interest in replacing it. When you think about it, people who are frugal will buy practical and cost effective cars and drive them for a decade or more (that is, if they buy a car at all!). That means t…

The difference is that new cars are safe cars. Old cars are death traps. If you value your life you will be buying the new shiny every 5 years or less.

Is there evidence for the rationale for five years or less for the age of a car?

I hate all the entertainment systems and believe anything beyond Bluetooth and no complex entertainment system to be a lethal distraction that makes cars just as unsafe as older or weaker safety controls.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#615

Post by poidos »

itsoktocry wrote: post #600
bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

City dwellers will spend $2500 a month for 400 sq feet of rented living space and laugh at people paying $50k for a car.

You said it yourself — their dwelling is the entire city. Those 400sqft are where they sleep and relax but most of their living probably happens outside. Different strokes and all that.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#616

Post by LeafItAlone »

ac29 wrote: post #510
bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

> Americans won't buy cheap cars Sure they will, they'll even buy cheap EVs. The highest lifetime EV sales in the US is the Leaf, Model 3/Y, and Bolt. They aren't at the top of the list because they're the best cars on the market, but because they are the cheapest.

>The highest lifetime EV sales in the US is the Leaf, Model 3/Y, and Bolt.

The cheapest Model 3 is $42,500. The cheapest Model Y is $45,000.

Is that cheap?

The Leaf ($30,000) and Bolt ($27,500) are cheap_er_ (by a lot), but they are still not what I (and presumably parent) would consider cheap.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#617

Post by [deleted] »

epistasis wrote: post #421
jerkstate wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since the local power company here is only paying 10 cents per kw for solar power (which they resell at greater profit) I think this is a common reason for disappointment in solar incentives. At least half of your power bill pays for transmission, and the half that pays for generation needs to be constructed such that the overall supply must meet the demand at all times, rather than simply supplying a number of kWh…

I'm not fully sold on this reasoning. Electricity on the local distribution node has a value equal to the cost of generation plus the distribution. That's the value of it, what we pay. So by supplying the kWh locally to neighbors, the grid costs have been avoided. But the value is still the same. Now, the T&D infrastructure has already been built, and the utility wants to get paid no matter what, but if they were a p…

[deleted]

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#618

Post by slater »

fsckboy wrote: post #444
aydyn wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not up to a single individual to fix monetary policy. Maybe you should work on your social skills before calling someone greedy for merely making money.

we are all greedy, it's human nature, and greed is good, it makes us strive and human striving is what brings us all benefits. So when I use greed, it's not meant as an insult. Only people who use it as an insult (frequently socialists), as if they themselves are not greedy, need to hear it hurled at them, simply as a proof of "hey, you're a human too, stop thinking you're better than other people". and we're talking…

> greed is good

My dude, Gordon Gekko was not the protagonist.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#619

Post by lelanthran »

solardev wrote: post #268
latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

Half of America doesn't want to support the incoming administration either, and Musk has decided to closely and personally align himself with it. I wonder if that will affect Tesla sales.

> Half of America doesn't want to support the incoming administration

Hasn't that been true for every US presidential election?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#620

Post by Dylan16807 »

epistasis wrote: post #606
Dylan16807 wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So by supplying the kWh locally to neighbors, the grid costs have been avoided. No they haven't. The grid cost is to build and maintain the wires and equipment. Your solar output isn't reliable enough for them to downsize the grid, so even though selling to a neighbor bypasses the grid it doesn't reduce the cost of having a grid. What you could do is split out the grid cost, make it be a fixed fee per location inst…

If you keep reading to the next few sentences I point out that the utility has sunk costs, so I understand you point quite well already. Transmission savings are the big thing with distributed solar and storage. And transmission is the bottleneck for most projects looking to connect to the grid right now. Not only is it expensive, it's slow to build.

> If you keep reading to the next few sentences I point out that the utility has sunk costs, so I understand you point quite well already.

It's not that they have sunk costs, it's that they have ongoing costs. The grid cost does not drop when you send excess solar to a neighbor. To actually avoid grid costs you need to reduce your max watts in a way that the power company can rely on.

> Transmission savings are the big thing with distributed solar and storage. And transmission is the bottleneck for most projects looking to connect to the grid right now. Not only is it expensive, it's slow to build.

Storage can save on transmissions but it has to be set up the right way. Solar and storage working together can do even better, but also have to be set up the right way. Solar by itself doesn't make a big difference in peak transmissions.

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