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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#381

Post by Zelphyr »

latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

I don't remember the source so, someone please correct me if I'm wrong but, I read that no EV battery can be made for less than $50K. So, either BYD is cutting some serious corners (possibly) or they are being heavily subsidized (probably). If either are true, I can see how that would be damaging to us.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#382

Post by jklinger410 »

knowitnone wrote: post #378

After reading some of the comments, the next questions, why are automakers not building plants in Africa? Cheap labor force, cheap land, probably needs education and training. China is courting Africa, is the US?

France has dibs on Africa. Plus, the American manufacturing industry was our gift to and remains our primary bargaining chip with CCP. We wouldn't dare give it to anyone else.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#383

Post by rootusrootus »

glial wrote: post #317
rootusrootus wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protecting local manufacturers from cheap offshore labor is rational, especially if the offshore products are being subsidized specifically to undermine incumbents and put them out of business. I get that individual consumers want the cheapest trinket they can find, but the gov't has to be more strategic. And every country does this, including the one that would be the source of these trinkets.

I exclusively buy Toyotas because they are cheaper to maintain than American cars. Is your argument that I shouldn't have access to Japanese cars either? I understand the desire to have a strategic reserve of manufacturing capacity. However, the US also subsidizes the US auto industry heavily by e.g. bailing out GM and Chrysler. It frustrates me that US car manufacturers continue to make exclusively heavy, low-effici…

> I exclusively buy Toyotas because they are cheaper to maintain than American cars.

I think Teslas are actually cheapest, by brand.

> It frustrates me that US car manufacturers continue to make exclusively heavy, low-efficiency vehicles.

The market has decided that they want cars from Toyota and trucks from Detroit. I can't really blame the automakers from focusing on what makes them the best profit.

I'd dispute the low efficiency claim. My Ford pickup is way more efficient than anything Toyota makes. And even strictly comparing like-for-like, Toyota is on the lower efficiency end of that market.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#384

Post by short_sells_poo »

some_random wrote: post #306
short_sells_poo wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's a compromise. A pure EV would be much better if the charging infrastructure was great. If it isn't, then you need a compromise...

No, even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle. There are other esoteric benefits of ICE but that's the one the vast majority of people are hung up on and that will likely not be fixed anytime soon.

> Even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle.

That's just down to charging infrastructure no? Sure, there are physical limits to how much electricity one can move in a given time, but we are nowhere at those physical limits.

So it's just down to infrastructure in the end. If there was infrastructure to quickly and reliably charge EVs, ICE would only have niche advantages.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#385

Post by nunez »

gradus_ad wrote: post #208

Why isn't there more focus on plain old Hybrids? Not PHEV's... Aren't they a best of both worlds approach? What am I missing.

They are crutches and will be the worst of both worlds when EV fast charging infrastructure becomes as ubiquitous as gas refueling is today.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#386

Post by jebarker »

SoftTalker wrote: post #374
GratiaTerra wrote: post #248

I took advantage of the IRA solar power and $7500 EV credit, now I have an off grid home all electric appliances and excess power for hot tubs and EV's. The Ford Lightning acts as a generator. This was the greatest most life changing and impactful legistlation ever: I've had $0 (ZERO!) in gasoline, LP, and electric utility bills since installation last year.

It's great now but when it starts to degrade and needs maintenance and replacement that's now entirely your problem, there is no utility with a huge staff of electricians and linesmen ready to deal with that on a sub-zero winter day or in the middle of a rainy night.

With this kind of setup you can stay connected to the grid. In the event that your solar and storage fail unexpectedly you can still pay for grid electricity.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#387

Post by fsckboy »

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #366
fsckboy wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You should be downvoted for your last comment too! Or at least someone could explain the world we live in. Is it confiscatory to have public schools, funded by your taxes, fsck guy (you do have a great handle...)? How about publicly funded (by our taxes too) police and fire protection? Uh, govt funding to help pay for hospitals? Food inspection, are you crazy you might say, the perfectly working markets of our paradi…

you need to read up on the economics of "public goods", other people have thought this through before you. In a nutshell, police and fire protection benefit everyone, because if your neighbor has low crime or low chance of fire spreading, that also benefits you, so it makes sense to include everyone in the plan. But while the $7500 was paid for by everybody else, the only person with the $0 electric bill is GP, which does not have any fairness property.

The socialist mantra "from those with the ability" includes GP who has the ability to pay for this so that other people's needs can be met.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#388

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

JohnBooty wrote: post #117
smitelli wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They used to, that’s the thing. It used to be possible to get barebones A-to-B transportation with zero frills. Power windows/locks, air conditioning, ABS, power steering, automatic transmission—all manner of things that aren’t strictly required to get a person to/from where they need to go—could be optioned away if the buyer was very price sensitive. In 1998 a Chevrolet Metro could be optioned without a radio or rea…

I want that too, but: Hell, if somebody made something new like a base model 90s Civic into a $15k EV without extra luxury nonsense I don’t actually need They could strip all that stuff out, but it wouldn't really reduce the cost of the car by as much as we want it to. The cost of much of the "luxury nonsense" like power windows and heated seats is heavily amortized since the tooling etc. is shared with the more expe…

Not only that, but there's a cost to variable manufacturing. It's easy to build thousands of the same thing. It's harder (read: more expensive) to build a thousand of one thing, and another thousand of a slight variation of that thing and yet another thousand of another variation...

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#389

Post by xur17 »

nunez wrote: post #359
snakeyjake wrote: post #311

There are inexpensive EVs in the US. A local dealer has new Nissan Leafs available for $24.5k (after rebates) all day, every day. There are also inexpensive cars. A local dealer has new Mitsubishi Mirage Hatchbacks available for $17k all day, every day. People don't want them. They're not being tricked, cajoled, strong-armed, forced, pressured, misguided, or hoodwinked. American consumers WANT and CAN AFFORD gigantic…

People don't want Leafs because they come with too many compromises. Small battery, slow, weird and phased-out charging port; list goes on. It's a first-gen EV through and through. However, Nissan's second EV, the Ariya, is selling much better! Crossover CUV (which America wants), bigger battery, fast, stylish, starts at $39.5k. We also now have sub-$30k used Tesla's out in the market too.

> We also now have sub-$30k used Tesla's out in the market too.

I purchased a 2023 Model 3 from Hertz over the summer for $23k, which I've been very happy with. I'm not eligible for either tax rebate (used or new), so 1 year ago I would have paid north of $40k for it.

There are definitely some good deals out there.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#390

Post by NotSammyHagar »

glial wrote: post #317
rootusrootus wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protecting local manufacturers from cheap offshore labor is rational, especially if the offshore products are being subsidized specifically to undermine incumbents and put them out of business. I get that individual consumers want the cheapest trinket they can find, but the gov't has to be more strategic. And every country does this, including the one that would be the source of these trinkets.

I exclusively buy Toyotas because they are cheaper to maintain than American cars. Is your argument that I shouldn't have access to Japanese cars either? I understand the desire to have a strategic reserve of manufacturing capacity. However, the US also subsidizes the US auto industry heavily by e.g. bailing out GM and Chrysler. It frustrates me that US car manufacturers continue to make exclusively heavy, low-effici…

There have been people who wanted much more protectionism from Japanese autos since the 1970s, esp. since they demonstrated they make great cars for less money and detroit wasn't really interested in trying too hard.

History looked like it was going to repeat with EVs from the US except for Tesla. Now GM has some decent cars across a variety of models, Ford has 2. But neither company has put out any really low priced cars yet (you know, like under 30). Tesla (lead by darth vader) is the only hope for the near future of low priced cars. I think ford and gm will get there eventually. But it could be too late if imports can just come in.

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