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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#351

Post by HPsquared »

robertlagrant wrote: post #293
mrguyorama wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Prius gets up to 50 mpg on the highway too, much better than ICE cousins.

How is that possible? What's it doing that ICE cars can't do on a highway?

Most ICE car engines are massively oversized for highway cruising (so they have power for acceleration) and aren't running efficiently during said cruising. Huge amounts of engineering goes into trying to reduce this effect but it's always there to some extent.

Hybrids use a smaller engine that is running in a more efficient operating range during cruising (i.e. not pulling a huge vacuum and moving lots of parts the whole time). The battery/motor comes in for acceleration.

Unlike combustion engines, electric stuff isn't really inefficient at low load.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#352

Post by Rebelgecko »

glial wrote: post #317
rootusrootus wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protecting local manufacturers from cheap offshore labor is rational, especially if the offshore products are being subsidized specifically to undermine incumbents and put them out of business. I get that individual consumers want the cheapest trinket they can find, but the gov't has to be more strategic. And every country does this, including the one that would be the source of these trinkets.

I exclusively buy Toyotas because they are cheaper to maintain than American cars. Is your argument that I shouldn't have access to Japanese cars either? I understand the desire to have a strategic reserve of manufacturing capacity. However, the US also subsidizes the US auto industry heavily by e.g. bailing out GM and Chrysler. It frustrates me that US car manufacturers continue to make exclusively heavy, low-effici…

Most (maybe all?) Toyota in the US are actually made in America. If you look at the various "Made In America" indexes that take into account factories, supply chain, etc, the Camry does better than anything from Detroit

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#353

Post by pstuart »

klooney wrote: post #345
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda think the whole thing is just Elon tricking republicans into buying electric cars.

Which is good, we don't want electric cars to become a culture war issue

> we don't want electric cars to become a culture war issue

Too late. I'm happy to be proven wrong at some point.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#354

Post by Majromax »

jerf wrote: post #187
navane wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the car 10k more expensive because of inflation or is the inflation so high because the car costs 10k more?

One of the best understandings of inflation is to use the mathematical concept of "equality" on those. They're two ways of phrasing the same thing. A lot of people do a lot of bad thinking when they say "oh, well, inflation is umptybumpkins percent, so the fact that cars are that much more expensive is 'just' inflation, and thus isn't anything". But inflation is prices going up. When the various sources release "how…

> One of the best understandings of inflation is to use the mathematical concept of "equality" on those. They're two ways of phrasing the same thing.

They're not quite the same thing. All other things equal, if a price increase is "just" inflation then it takes the same number of hours of work to buy the car (or equivalently, the car is worth the same number of loaves of bread).

The alternative is that car prices have increased relative to other goods. This could happen through higher-quality/more featureful/bigger cars (which would be removed from the inflation calculation), or it could come because of some idiosyncratic feature of the industry like the car-chip shortage during covid.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#355

Post by datavirtue »

bloomingeek wrote: post #262
latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

Absolutely! The biggest problem is the average American allows themselves to be duped and challenged by advertising. New tech in cars is great, but spending $40K and up is stupid. I've said it before: my $27K base model Ram truck will go from point A to point B just as well as a $70K(!) model. Is it just as shiny? No, but the money I didn't spend on all that shine won't be wasted on depreciation. My credit union rece…

All those options and appearance packages just become liabilities as the trucks age. None of it ages well.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#356

Post by nunez »

rootusrootus wrote: post #63
smitelli wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They used to, that’s the thing. It used to be possible to get barebones A-to-B transportation with zero frills. Power windows/locks, air conditioning, ABS, power steering, automatic transmission—all manner of things that aren’t strictly required to get a person to/from where they need to go—could be optioned away if the buyer was very price sensitive. In 1998 a Chevrolet Metro could be optioned without a radio or rea…

> I suspect a whole segment of people would be willing to consider a no-frills EV at a comparable price point. GM made that play with the Bolt. It was routinely available for just over $20K. Still sat on lots, not getting a lot of love. People shopping for new cars want nicer toys, people who cannot afford new shop used and enjoy getting those nice toys at a discount. I bet the subset of buyers looking for a bare bon…

It's a shame that the Bolt got discontinued. It was a great EV. I would have bought one if I didn't have exposure to Tesla first.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#357

Post by jmward01 »

aqfamnzc wrote: post #129
jmward01 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always buy used so I have some time left, but not much. When I bought my last vehicle the person had one of those insurance GPS devices in it. I can't even begin to understand why anyone would do that. It is so obviously going to be used against the driver and it is also obvious that it will eventually become 'required' and that just depresses me.

Money. The insurance company gives a discount. And honestly, for someone who doesn't share my same strong values for privacy, I don't blame them!

The point about the insurance GPS is that they will eventually use it against the person. 'You were going 5mph over the speed limit before the crash...' that kind of thing. Giving them more information will just lead to the consumer being hurt. Oh, and they will clearly sell that info to anyone they can get to buy it of course. That part isn't great either.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#358

Post by jebarker »

asciimov wrote: post #329
GratiaTerra wrote: post #248

I took advantage of the IRA solar power and $7500 EV credit, now I have an off grid home all electric appliances and excess power for hot tubs and EV's. The Ford Lightning acts as a generator. This was the greatest most life changing and impactful legistlation ever: I've had $0 (ZERO!) in gasoline, LP, and electric utility bills since installation last year.

It's too bad that the only people benefiting from all green power subsidies are the people that least need them. We should be investing solar in lower income communities, as those people could really use cheaper utilities, and any saving they get would immediately go back into their communities.

We need both. There's plenty of wealthy people that can afford to go solar and could arguably have a bigger environmental impact if they did since they often also have large homes, big cars etc. If they don't feel strongly about doing it for altruistic reasons then subsidies are a useful tool to get them to take the plunge. Without subsidies there's really no economic argument for them to do it since the break even times are long and they probably aren't too worried about utility costs.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#359

Post by nunez »

snakeyjake wrote: post #311

There are inexpensive EVs in the US. A local dealer has new Nissan Leafs available for $24.5k (after rebates) all day, every day. There are also inexpensive cars. A local dealer has new Mitsubishi Mirage Hatchbacks available for $17k all day, every day. People don't want them. They're not being tricked, cajoled, strong-armed, forced, pressured, misguided, or hoodwinked. American consumers WANT and CAN AFFORD gigantic…

People don't want Leafs because they come with too many compromises.

Small battery, slow, weird and phased-out charging port; list goes on. It's a first-gen EV through and through.

However, Nissan's second EV, the Ariya, is selling much better! Crossover CUV (which America wants), bigger battery, fast, stylish, starts at $39.5k.

We also now have sub-$30k used Tesla's out in the market too.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#360

Post by pstuart »

jayd16 wrote: post #324
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda think the whole thing is just Elon tricking republicans into buying electric cars.

Is that why the EV subsidy is getting repealed?

The incoming administration has shown contempt for programs created by the "other side". They're strongly against renewable energy in general, and their patrons are oil and gas people.
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