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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#321

Post by mrguyorama »

voisin wrote: post #70
rootusrootus wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect a whole segment of people would be willing to consider a no-frills EV at a comparable price point. GM made that play with the Bolt. It was routinely available for just over $20K. Still sat on lots, not getting a lot of love. People shopping for new cars want nicer toys, people who cannot afford new shop used and enjoy getting those nice toys at a discount. I bet the subset of buyers looking for a bare bon…

> People shopping for new cars want nicer toys It is worth recognizing the role that ZIRP played in all of this. Artificially low interest rates allowed payments on more expensive premium vehicles to be much more manageable for a much larger portion of the population.

That actual reason for this is that cars are just hyper-reliable. The reason people wanted to buy a new bare bones car over a used nice car is the assumption that the used car would cost you in repairs.

That assumption has been dead since cash for clunkers. Even American made cars will hit 200k miles. There's ZERO value to a "new" car. You would be outright stupid to pay $10k for some probably not possible "bare bones" car when you could just buy the decade old Corolla down the street with 100k miles that's only $5k. It will even have fairly modern safety. This is true even in the modern post-COVID hyper contracted used car market.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#322

Post by ghaff »

yurishimo wrote: post #167
vundercind wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my everything-car that runs entirely on electricity for 90% of trips. I assume there's some reason they're not a more widely-supported option, but damn, I wish they were more common.

They aren't more widely supported because they are more expensive and more complicated to manufacture with a higher potential for more stuff to go wrong. Until the engine that powers a PHEV is nearly drop-in ready for a replacement (for example, going to your local auto parts store and buying a replacement like a battery) then companies need to have service technicians and production lines to support these "engines"…

People make the rental argument a lot. But having been in a ski house quite a few years back with a lot of New Yorkers who didn't own cars, I saw first-hand what a relative main in the neck it was to rent a car for the weekend (e.g. often having to go out to an airport and planning ahead). That's maybe fine if the economics are compelling but that probably assumes things like you even have a commute by car. And that you're willing to give up convenience to save even a few thousand dollars a year.

I have an ICE but I only fill the tank once or maybe twice most months.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#323

Post by jayd16 »

kjksf wrote: post #267
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing is that Musk himself said the “Shanghai built Tesla's are the best quality Tesla's” and he’s fully leaning into Chinese manufacturing. I suspect what will happen is that cheap Chinese imports will come into the USA but only for select manufacturers who benefit the current administration. So no cheap byd’s but possibly cheap Tesla’s.

Tesla cars sold in US are the most American build cars. See https://www.carpro.com/blog/most-american-made-vehicle-the-t... What it means that if you count what percentage of car parts are made in America, Tesla has higher percentage that other brands, even those you might consider "more" American, like GM or Ford. All Teslas sold in America are assembled in America (California or Texas). Ford Mustang, for example, i…

> Tesla told us that they'll start making a cheaper model sometime in 2025.

Buddy, do I have a bridge to sell you...

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#324

Post by jayd16 »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #280
solardev wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half of America doesn't want to support the incoming administration either, and Musk has decided to closely and personally align himself with it. I wonder if that will affect Tesla sales.

I kinda think the whole thing is just Elon tricking republicans into buying electric cars.

Is that why the EV subsidy is getting repealed?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#325

Post by hkpack »

larkost wrote: post #310
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda think the whole thing is just Elon tricking republicans into buying electric cars.

[flagged]

> As evidence look at all of the quickly disproven posts on a wide range of topics that Elon has posted. He did no research at all before posting those things (despite a large following, and thus large responsibility). He "felt" that the post was good/right, so he went with it.

Or, more likely, he knows exactly what he is doing.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#326

Post by vundercind »

robertlagrant wrote: post #293
mrguyorama wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Prius gets up to 50 mpg on the highway too, much better than ICE cousins.

How is that possible? What's it doing that ICE cars can't do on a highway?

I'd guess it has something to do with its unusual drivetrain. It can operate: 1) fully electric, 2) fully electric but with gas used in generator-mode to supply power to the electric drive train, 3) gas engine mechanically powering the wheels (like a normal ICE car).

I'd expect it operates in mode 2 a lot when at highway speeds, but not accelerating.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#327

Post by engineer_22 »

potato3732842 wrote: post #142
kraken20480 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese EV imports could threaten national security through technology dependence and harm American auto manufacturing jobs. Safety and environmental standards may also be lower. I think that view is rather narrow.

>threaten national security through technology dependence and harm American auto manufacturing jobs. Safety and environmental standards may also be lower. Protectionism based tax and economic policy causes the exact same outcomes but far enough in the future and far enough away that the people who implemented it will be retired and/or dead and the people who voted for those people to do it will have had time to spin…

Weird to me that off-shoring is back in vogue.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#328

Post by cosmic_cheese »

rconti wrote: post #318
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you on the lack of diversification in models available. I’d really love to see an EV that’s in line with the virtues of the Honda Fit, Honda Element, and Toyota Matrix — not sexy or fancy, but cheap, insanely practical little “everything cars” that can take on anything you throw at them with tons of cargo space, fold flat seating, stock roof rack, etc — cars that are made for doing things instead of impressing…

I do think that the i3 is the one that fits best here. But being an all carbon fiber structure, being 2-10 years old, being a BMW, I understand there are a lot of strikes against it here when people think "cheap small economical car with a lot of space inside". It's such a shame Honda won't sell the e here. I'm not going to say "I'd buy one in a second" because I'm not paying new car prices for one, but I wouldn't ha…

I considered a used i3 when I last shopped but got spooked by how some models used plastic parts that can break easily and have cooling systems which can fail spectacularly, both of which are costly to fix. If it weren’t for that there’d probably be one in my garage now.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#329

Post by asciimov »

GratiaTerra wrote: post #248

I took advantage of the IRA solar power and $7500 EV credit, now I have an off grid home all electric appliances and excess power for hot tubs and EV's. The Ford Lightning acts as a generator. This was the greatest most life changing and impactful legistlation ever: I've had $0 (ZERO!) in gasoline, LP, and electric utility bills since installation last year.

It's too bad that the only people benefiting from all green power subsidies are the people that least need them.

We should be investing solar in lower income communities, as those people could really use cheaper utilities, and any saving they get would immediately go back into their communities.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#330

Post by davidw »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #276
kjksf wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla cars sold in US are the most American build cars. See https://www.carpro.com/blog/most-american-made-vehicle-the-t... What it means that if you count what percentage of car parts are made in America, Tesla has higher percentage that other brands, even those you might consider "more" American, like GM or Ford. All Teslas sold in America are assembled in America (California or Texas). Ford Mustang, for example, i…

I’m saying that Chinese made teslas might be allowed in the USA in the near future. Musk himself has stated bluntly that USA made teslas are lower quality and more expensive so you can see the desire to shut down the US plants and bring in Chinese made Teslas and he clearly has some political sway now.

Yeah,if you look at the tariffs not as a fixed thing that applies to everyone, but a way to favor select companies and hurt others, I think they make more sense.
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