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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#231

Post by DaveExeter »

renewedrebecca wrote: post #206
DaveExeter wrote: post #105

If we wanted a cheap American electric car, the way to do it would be to allow Chinese EV manufacturers to sell to the American public! Of course, that is not allowed, because it would benefit the American people and hurt the American car cartel.

Well, there's also the 4.3 million US autoworkers who'd ultimately be the ones to get shafted. I don't think we can keep killing off entire industries and expect it to work out in the long run. At some point, what's left? WalMart?

Congrats! You discovered the Broken Window Fallacy.

There are 300 million Americans. Why should ~1% get to hold the remaining 99% hostage?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#232

Post by latentcall »

kraken20480 wrote: post #126
DaveExeter wrote: post #105

If we wanted a cheap American electric car, the way to do it would be to allow Chinese EV manufacturers to sell to the American public! Of course, that is not allowed, because it would benefit the American people and hurt the American car cartel.

Chinese EV imports could threaten national security through technology dependence and harm American auto manufacturing jobs. Safety and environmental standards may also be lower. I think that view is rather narrow.

I’d say let’s ask the free market and put BYD’s for sale to see what the American people think.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#233

Post by some_random »

short_sells_poo wrote: post #215
f1refly wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because PHEV are a really dumb idea? You're lugging around two complete powertrains the whole time, a massive waste of energy!

Nobody wants this, but in an imperfect world, one has to make suboptimal compromises. You can get an EV, and then have to deal with half a dozen barely competent charging networks each with their own donkey, slow and insecure app, their own quirks and pricing schemes, etc. For some, the tradeoff is worth it, for others it isn't. You can also get a PHEV, which could allow you to use one car for commuting purely on ele…

I think you'll find most normal people find PHEVs extremely attractive propositions that are a perfect compromise between ICE and EVs.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#234

Post by harpiaharpyja »

lumost wrote: post #162
vundercind wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my everything-car that runs entirely on electricity for 90% of trips. I assume there's some reason they're not a more widely-supported option, but damn, I wish they were more common.

PHEV means two drive trains, more parts and in turn more weight. Do you really want a plugin car that loses its charge in 30 minutes?

Is it two drive trains? I thought ideally PHEV would be like diesel-electric with electric motors supplying traction and a gas power plant supplying power.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#235

Post by fwip »

lumost wrote: post #162
vundercind wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my everything-car that runs entirely on electricity for 90% of trips. I assume there's some reason they're not a more widely-supported option, but damn, I wish they were more common.

PHEV means two drive trains, more parts and in turn more weight. Do you really want a plugin car that loses its charge in 30 minutes?

"30 minutes" is pretty misleading, because it's not like the batteries are discharging at a constant rate.

It might be thirty minutes on the highway, as new PHEV cars have ranges in the 30-40 miles range. But if you're driving in the city, 30 miles is enough to get you basically anywhere you want to go and back, even if traffic makes it a 2 hour trip.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#236

Post by avgDev »

cottsak wrote: post #182
avgDev wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Combustion engine is a perfected tech, which can easily last 100K+ miles. EVs do have a cooling system for the battery. EVs also have a battery which can be $20k, and electric motors which are $10k. This really makes them awful on the used market when the warranty runs out. If a used Model 3 needs a battery it is basically scrap.

but a used Model 3 doesn't! and that's the fake news here. These batteries last ages. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doAcNVuTnXU

Seriously, a YouTube video is supposed to be proof that batteries last ages? What is ages? If you provide something I can read you might have been able to change my mind.

Truth is not many want to risk buying a used electric car and the depreciation reflects that.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#237

Post by drawkward »

015a wrote: post #149
ceejayoz wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> its worth pointing out that Tesla also said that more affordable options will be available in 2025H1 Sure, but they've been saying full self driving is "next year" for a decade in a row. I take that with a large grain of salt. https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-promises-full-self-driving-ne...

Absolutely; but it is at least indicative of the direction Tesla is taking. It might be the end of 2025, 2026, whenever; but they've said they're working on lower cost models. That's all I'm asserting.

Why anyone would take Elon at his word is beyond me.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#238

Post by toast0 »

lumost wrote: post #162
vundercind wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my everything-car that runs entirely on electricity for 90% of trips. I assume there's some reason they're not a more widely-supported option, but damn, I wish they were more common.

PHEV means two drive trains, more parts and in turn more weight. Do you really want a plugin car that loses its charge in 30 minutes?

I own one and would prefer if my next car purchase was another one. Unfortunately, while the model I've picked for my next car has a PHEV option, they don't make very many, and don't take orders, so if you really want it, you probably need to put your name down at all the dealerships, and the wait for regular hybrid is already long and the vehicle to be replaced was sold in summer. PHEV would be nicer, and we've made due longer than I thought we would, but when our regular hybrid comes in, that will be good enough.

PHEVs are lovely to drive, and availability of gas stations means almost no planning is needed. Fuel low, stop in for 5 minutes and good to go for hundreds of miles (current one does 500-600/tank depending on conditions)

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#239

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

r14c wrote: post #47

The only EV I'm even interested in is an Aptera. They're building a new class of vehicle that takes advantage of the affordances of full electric. I want a small efficient car that can go long distances and nobody else is building anything like that. Even US capital markets don't understand the appeal of this class of vehicle, but luckily they were able to fill their funding in global capital markets. I'm pretty pess…

It's neat, but it would require segregated roadways to be safe, and we're not going to get that.

I'd love to live in that world though. Smaller, lighter, lower-speed vehicles. Bicycles. Walkable neighborhoods. It'd be great.

But we can't have those nice things, because most Americans have atrocious taste -- and the ones who do have good taste, you can't afford to live next to.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#240

Post by fwip »

Kudos wrote: post #186
mschuster91 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's more than enough to cover the average worker's commute, especially as most of the time is spent stuck in traffic.

That's not true, it's barely enough to get the average worker to their job https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-...

> Among this group, those leaving between 6:00 a.m. and 6:29 a.m. reported the longest average travel time to work at 32.8 minutes.

So, if "30 minutes" was actually how you measured range (and not in miles), the average worker in the longest group would burn fuel for 3 minutes, instead of 33 minutes. This is 90% less fuel than a traditional hybrid car would use in the same time.

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