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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#181

Post by Kudos »

vundercind wrote: post #137
rootusrootus wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the EV car market is lacking demand There is scant evidence for this. Every time prices improve, sales surge. Sounds like the demand is there, but price matters. As it always has.

I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my everything-car that runs entirely on electricity for 90% of trips. I assume there's some reason they're not a more widely-supported option, but damn, I wish they were more common.

From what I've read most PHEVs tend to have really bad batteries that are unreliable, complicated and expensive to replace. It makes sense that they cut corners when there's a whole other powertrain to mask it.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#182

Post by cottsak »

avgDev wrote: post #138
jaco6 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An advantage of a pure EV over a hybrid is that you don’t have the maintenance liability of the combustion engine, cooling system, and transmission.

Combustion engine is a perfected tech, which can easily last 100K+ miles. EVs do have a cooling system for the battery. EVs also have a battery which can be $20k, and electric motors which are $10k. This really makes them awful on the used market when the warranty runs out. If a used Model 3 needs a battery it is basically scrap.

but a used Model 3 doesn't! and that's the fake news here. These batteries last ages. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doAcNVuTnXU

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#183

Post by vundercind »

triceratops wrote: post #153
EricE wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just ask the dealer to compute the out the door price. It really isn't that difficult and certainly doesn't require yet another stupid regulation!

So instead of easily comparing prices online, now you have to call dealers individually and ask them to compute the out the door price? Which they already know and could post online themselves? This is exactly the kind of problem regulations are meant to solve. Preventing false advertising and bringing information to all market participants make the market more efficient.

Such regulations are pro-market, too (not pro-business, in the sense of being something business owners will be thrilled about—confusing the two is a common error). Increasing price transparency is supposed to be a way to improve market efficiency.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#184

Post by darknavi »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #176

> The cheapest car Tesla currently sells in the U.S. starts at around $43,000—or $35,500 with a federal tax credit of $7,500. Curious if anyone knows — do people actually drive off the lot with a Tesla for $35,500?

There is no lot. You click order online and it shows up. Honestly one of the best things Tesla has done for the car industry.

I see a Model 3 Long Range rear wheel drive listed for $42,490 in their new vehicle configurator: https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#185

Post by pif »

lumost wrote: post #162
vundercind wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my everything-car that runs entirely on electricity for 90% of trips. I assume there's some reason they're not a more widely-supported option, but damn, I wish they were more common.

PHEV means two drive trains, more parts and in turn more weight. Do you really want a plugin car that loses its charge in 30 minutes?

> Do you really want a plugin car that loses its charge in 30 minutes?

30' are enough to go to work, where I can recharge during the day for the return leg. 30' are enough for any daily errand, too, so that would not be a problem.

Finally, for long trips, I'd use it as a "real" car with its internal combustion engine.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#186

Post by Kudos »

mschuster91 wrote: post #179
lumost wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PHEV means two drive trains, more parts and in turn more weight. Do you really want a plugin car that loses its charge in 30 minutes?

That's more than enough to cover the average worker's commute, especially as most of the time is spent stuck in traffic.

That's not true, it's barely enough to get the average worker to their job https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-...

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#187

Post by jerf »

navane wrote: post #10
bartvk wrote: post #2

https://archive.ph/9oIT4 I wish it would have adjusted for inflation. One quote: "The average transaction price for a new vehicle sold in the U.S. last month was $48,623, according to Kelley Blue Book, roughly $10,000 higher than in 2019, before the pandemic." However, about 9200 euros of that is due to inflation according to this calculator: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That's a nitpick though. All in all,…

Is the car 10k more expensive because of inflation or is the inflation so high because the car costs 10k more?

One of the best understandings of inflation is to use the mathematical concept of "equality" on those. They're two ways of phrasing the same thing.

A lot of people do a lot of bad thinking when they say "oh, well, inflation is umptybumpkins percent, so the fact that cars are that much more expensive is 'just' inflation, and thus isn't anything".

But inflation is prices going up. When the various sources release "how large inflation is", they are telling you "this is how much prices went up". Ignoring prices going up because "oh, the prices went up because of inflation" is basically using the thing's own existence to argue that it doesn't exist, which, while abstractly sort of impressive, is not strong thinking.

There are some arguments about what causes prices to go up, but that's a separate question.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#188

Post by yurishimo »

busterarm wrote: post #128
DaveExeter wrote: post #105

If we wanted a cheap American electric car, the way to do it would be to allow Chinese EV manufacturers to sell to the American public! Of course, that is not allowed, because it would benefit the American people and hurt the American car cartel.

And two million less jobs for Americans. Huge benefit!

Americans vote against their own self interests constantly. How is this any different? Or do you think the US govt couldn't backstop it's own car companies until they became cost competitive? Seems like a win/win if we want to speed up EV adoption and reduce global emissions. If a new $20k EV with 300 miles of range was released tomorrow, we'd see massive adoption similar to the original Model 3. Americans I believe are largely ready for EV adoption but the only thing stopping the majority is price.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#189

Post by mobilene »

jogjayr wrote: post #5

Money quote: “As automakers were profit maximizing during the supply chain crisis era, you are going to prioritize the bigger vehicles, the more expensive vehicles with their higher margins,” Tyson Jominy, vice president of data and analytics at J.D. Power, told me. “Now we just don’t have” these cheaper models.

This. Yep, automakers have deliberately gone after higher profit margins per vehicle. Huge-volume, lower-cost cars are slowly going away. Get one while you can, if that's your thing.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#190

Post by JohnFen »

cottsak wrote: post #172
JohnFen wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't buy a used EV because the battery pack is that much closer to needing to be replaced, which effectively totals the vehicle.

I don't understand where this thinking comes from. It's not based in fact. These Tesla batteries degrade very slowly. And so if in 5 years you've lost 15% of the range, it still gets you anywhere you need to go including road trips with all of the Superchargers!? "totals the vehicle" is just nonsense and I wish more people understood the reality.

> I don't understand where this thinking comes from.

My observations, which certainly don't reflect the current state of the tech (although if I'm buying a used EV, I'm not buying the current tech). But that's my bias nonetheless. I do think I overemphasized this, though, because while this is what makes me shy away from the idea of used EVs, it's not the reason why I avoid buying cars that are too new (which includes pretty much all EVs).

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