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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#171

Post by coredog64 »

smitelli wrote: post #52
p1necone wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine the most price sensitive buyers wouldn't be looking at the new market at all - there might not be enough demand for "cheap, but still nowhere near as cheap as a second hand car" to make the price point worth targeting as a manufacturer.

They used to, that’s the thing. It used to be possible to get barebones A-to-B transportation with zero frills. Power windows/locks, air conditioning, ABS, power steering, automatic transmission—all manner of things that aren’t strictly required to get a person to/from where they need to go—could be optioned away if the buyer was very price sensitive. In 1998 a Chevrolet Metro could be optioned without a radio or rea…

Specific to GM, those low cost barebones cars were a regulatory hack for CAFE. Selling 3 Metros made up for high dollar, low efficiency Camaros or Cadillacs.

With the move to trucks and ethanol credits, those hacks are no longer cost-effective.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#172

Post by cottsak »

JohnFen wrote: post #136
matthewdgreen wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big part of that market is being addressed by used EVs, which are getting much cheaper right now as they age out of new-car-buyers' households. https://www.kbb.com/cars-for-sale/used/tesla

I wouldn't buy a used EV because the battery pack is that much closer to needing to be replaced, which effectively totals the vehicle.

I don't understand where this thinking comes from. It's not based in fact. These Tesla batteries degrade very slowly. And so if in 5 years you've lost 15% of the range, it still gets you anywhere you need to go including road trips with all of the Superchargers!? "totals the vehicle" is just nonsense and I wish more people understood the reality.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#173

Post by kube-system »

vundercind wrote: post #144
jader201 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And brakes. My brake pads rarely touch my rotors. Not only does this (and the things you pointed out) reduce the cost of maintenance, it saves on trips to get them done, and the headaches of the pressure most put on you to get things done you don’t need, just so they can make even more money off of you. Also, EVs on the highway (when hybrids are using the ICE) are much quieter, and have more torque. The only downside…

I'd assumed PHEVs would include regenerative braking. Do they not?

They do. PHEVs and even HEVs are very easy on their brake pads. Usually to a lesser degree than BEVs, but it is not uncommon for even traditional hybrid owners to never need brake pad replacement for their entire ownership of a vehicle.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#174

Post by freeone3000 »

f1refly wrote: post #156
vundercind wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my everything-car that runs entirely on electricity for 90% of trips. I assume there's some reason they're not a more widely-supported option, but damn, I wish they were more common.

Maybe because PHEV are a really dumb idea? You're lugging around two complete powertrains the whole time, a massive waste of energy!

Or, getting at what is actually desired, a car that can be a wall-charged EV for in-town trips and daily commuting but can use the existing gasoline distribution network for long trips or in emergencies. We’re in a transition state, this isn’t an unreasonable ask.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#175

Post by vundercind »

warner25 wrote: post #34
bluedino wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kia sells quite a few cars that start at $20k, like the Soul and Forte

The Nissan Versa currently starts around $17k, and I see a lot of those on the road. The Mitsubishi Mirage is similarly priced but I don't think I've ever seen one in the wild. I rented a Kia Soul a few years ago and thought it was perfectly fine. But with so few options, like the parent, I'm planning to keep my current car (a 2008 Prius) indefinitely, just paying for repairs as needed until parts are unavailable or…

Closer to $20k than $10k seems insane for a budget-tier car, to me. I guess that's my age showing, but it wasn't that long ago (ten years ago? Twelve?) my in-laws got basically two identical Chevys of their shittiest possible model for under $10,000 combined. Granted I think it was the previous model year, but they weren't used cars or anything.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#177

Post by schnable »

kube-system wrote: post #148
jaco6 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An advantage of a pure EV over a hybrid is that you don’t have the maintenance liability of the combustion engine, cooling system, and transmission.

The 'transmission' on a hybrid is often no more complicated than the 'transmission' on an EV, many (but not all... looking at you, Hyundai) are much more simple than ICE vehicles. Also, for the duration that most new car buyers own any car, any difference of maintenance liability of even a traditional ICE vehicle is close to negligible. Most new car buyers pay for a couple of years of fluid changes, tires, and brakes…

but if there are higher maintenance costs a little later in the vehicle's life, won't that impact the trade-in value?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#178

Post by cottsak »

IneffablePigeon wrote: post #145
JohnFen wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't buy a used EV because the battery pack is that much closer to needing to be replaced, which effectively totals the vehicle.

One could say the same about a combustion engine, really. Battery packs last way, way longer than most people think because they analogise it to phone batteries which are quite different. The resale value of a degraded pack is also going to be higher than most people assume, I think. Unfortunately we have not had plentiful EVs with good battery packs for long enough to show this to the average consumer.

you just need to know the SoH (state of health). If that's 90% then you've lost 10% of the range at new. The lower the SoH for the same vehicle make, model, year and driven kms, then the worse the car has been treated. Simple as that.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#179

Post by mschuster91 »

lumost wrote: post #162
vundercind wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my everything-car that runs entirely on electricity for 90% of trips. I assume there's some reason they're not a more widely-supported option, but damn, I wish they were more common.

PHEV means two drive trains, more parts and in turn more weight. Do you really want a plugin car that loses its charge in 30 minutes?

That's more than enough to cover the average worker's commute, especially as most of the time is spent stuck in traffic.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#180

Post by rootusrootus »

triceratops wrote: post #153
EricE wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just ask the dealer to compute the out the door price. It really isn't that difficult and certainly doesn't require yet another stupid regulation!

So instead of easily comparing prices online, now you have to call dealers individually and ask them to compute the out the door price? Which they already know and could post online themselves? This is exactly the kind of problem regulations are meant to solve. Preventing false advertising and bringing information to all market participants make the market more efficient.

They'll have to know your address in order to accurately tell you the OTD price. Are you willing to give that information to every dealer you're querying about price?

There are also choices you can make during the registration process that will change the costs a bit. Quoting a fixed price for that would require yet more small print disclosing that certain choices were made.

I just don't see how it works out. Registration costs money. Not just when you buy the car, but over and over and over throughout the time you own it. You should know this as a driver. Further, the registration cost does not vary by dealer, so you don't need to know it in order to negotiate the best price.

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