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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#111

Post by criddell »

wyre wrote: post #12
AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If even ICE cars are now super expensive, why isn’t this a screaming opportunity for some auto manufacturer to target the low end of the market? I’ve never spent more than 20k for a car. With prices like this, I’m just going to keep my old one as long as I can.

My understanding is that because cars are generally purchased rarely, they make more money with the status quo instead allowing customers a budget option.

Budget options are out there but consumer demand for them is weak. Americans love their cars and seem to be willing to pay for a lot more car than they need.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#112

Post by EricE »

weberer wrote: post #102
lmm wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC the US has some ass-backwards fuel economy laws that mean it's essentially illegal to produce small cars. Also there's enough demand for high-margin cars to max out available production capacity, and would you want to be making major investments in ICE car production right now?

Its not fuel economy laws, its the highway safety laws. Light cars are usually more efficient. Maybe you're thinking of the strict emission laws regarding NOx and SOx that prevent diesel cars.

Nope, manufacturers get penalized by CAFE regulations if they have too many cars of certain types. It's batshit insane.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#113

Post by EricE »

OptionOfT wrote: post #41
wlesieutre wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a few $20k ish , though only the Forte actually making it under that. Forte LX starting at $19,900. Of course that's without without the $1,155 "destination" fee, so even the Forte really starts at $21,145. But considering inflation, $21k isn't a bad price.

We need laws that ban these junk fees. Any advertised price should be one I can get when I walk in. I cannot get the car without registration. I cannot get the car without 'destination' fee. Bake it into the price.

Just ask the dealer to compute the out the door price. It really isn't that difficult and certainly doesn't require yet another stupid regulation!

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#114

Post by [deleted] »

trhway wrote: post #50
AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If even ICE cars are now super expensive, why isn’t this a screaming opportunity for some auto manufacturer to target the low end of the market? I’ve never spent more than 20k for a car. With prices like this, I’m just going to keep my old one as long as I can.

>why isn’t this a screaming opportunity with the American consumer buying 15M cars a year at those average $50K there isn't an opportunity for the low end. And if such market really appears - i.e. if the American consumer would hit hard economic patch and would really need cheap car - it will be at any moment filled by cheap Chinese EVs.

[deleted]

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#115

Post by renewedrebecca »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #15
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I don’t understand the advantage of EVs really. Isn’t a plug in hybrid the best option? You can do everyday short trips on battery but also have the gas engine for longer trips. Sure it is more complicated but Toyota has shown that you can make this super reliable.

You're never going to a hybrid under $25,000. Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. I've done over 20,000 km in road trips in an EV. You charge while you're eating or toileting or sleeping, it doesn't affect my trips.

Out of curiosity, how long are those trips though?

In the US and probably Canada, there's an expectation that spending 8 hours in one day going somewhere is easily doable. (as in 800 km in 8 hours with a few 10-30 minute breaks for gasoline or food). It doesn't seem like that's a particularly normal thing for a European to do.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#117

Post by JohnBooty »

smitelli wrote: post #52
p1necone wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine the most price sensitive buyers wouldn't be looking at the new market at all - there might not be enough demand for "cheap, but still nowhere near as cheap as a second hand car" to make the price point worth targeting as a manufacturer.

They used to, that’s the thing. It used to be possible to get barebones A-to-B transportation with zero frills. Power windows/locks, air conditioning, ABS, power steering, automatic transmission—all manner of things that aren’t strictly required to get a person to/from where they need to go—could be optioned away if the buyer was very price sensitive. In 1998 a Chevrolet Metro could be optioned without a radio or rea…

I want that too, but:

    Hell, if somebody made something new like a base 
    model 90s Civic into a $15k EV without extra 
    luxury nonsense I don’t actually need
They could strip all that stuff out, but it wouldn't really reduce the cost of the car by as much as we want it to.

The cost of much of the "luxury nonsense" like power windows and heated seats is heavily amortized since the tooling etc. is shared with the more expensive vehicles, and the actual material costs are low.

Think about it; heated seats are just some simple heating coils. You can get something functionally equivalent that plugs into your cigarette lighter adapter for like $10 from Amazon. It ain't adding that much to the cost of your car.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#118

Post by ToucanLoucan »

MrHamburger wrote: post #75
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because demand isn't the issue. The issue is a new car that isn't a budget brand is increasingly a luxury option in the United States, because, and say it with me... Wages have been stagnant in the United States for nearly 50 years. Every economic stat right now points to this as the core issue. Consumers are squeezed more on every last good and service, tons of services are now only available via subscriptions which…

So if people would have money, there would be a demand. His point still stands.

I mean I think the distinction between "goods that are not wanted" and "goods that are wanted but are not affordable" is a significant one, but if you want to stick strictly to the terms of art in economics, then yes I suppose you're correct. And I didn't mean to argue his point, but rather to reinforce it. If goods, when they become cheaper, suddenly start moving again, then the goods themselves aren't really the issue.

And I mean, this is exactly 100% my experience currently. Our sedan could use replacement, it's about to hit the 200k miles mark, and given it's primarily used by my wife for inter-town transit, I would happily buy her an electric car, but a new electric car is hopelessly out of our reach financially. And I make six figures!

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#119

Post by renewedrebecca »

rootusrootus wrote: post #63
smitelli wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They used to, that’s the thing. It used to be possible to get barebones A-to-B transportation with zero frills. Power windows/locks, air conditioning, ABS, power steering, automatic transmission—all manner of things that aren’t strictly required to get a person to/from where they need to go—could be optioned away if the buyer was very price sensitive. In 1998 a Chevrolet Metro could be optioned without a radio or rea…

> I suspect a whole segment of people would be willing to consider a no-frills EV at a comparable price point. GM made that play with the Bolt. It was routinely available for just over $20K. Still sat on lots, not getting a lot of love. People shopping for new cars want nicer toys, people who cannot afford new shop used and enjoy getting those nice toys at a discount. I bet the subset of buyers looking for a bare bon…

The Bolt isn't exactly a good looking car though.

It might sound silly, but not everyone looks at things through a utilitarian view.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#120

Post by WorldMaker »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #15
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I don’t understand the advantage of EVs really. Isn’t a plug in hybrid the best option? You can do everyday short trips on battery but also have the gas engine for longer trips. Sure it is more complicated but Toyota has shown that you can make this super reliable.

You're never going to a hybrid under $25,000. Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. I've done over 20,000 km in road trips in an EV. You charge while you're eating or toileting or sleeping, it doesn't affect my trips.

> Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault.

The US is afraid of competition in the automotive industry and the current import tariffs and taxes on cars are a bit of an elephant in the room here, too.

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