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How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

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Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#131

Post by fvdessen »

specproc wrote: post #82
jandrewrogers wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has very low unemployment and median household incomes are among the highest in the world. You get to continue your existing health insurance 18 months after you quit if you wish, you just have to pay for it. Most people can and if you can’t then the government pays for it. While getting terminated is disruptive, it isn’t the end of the world for the typical American. The relative ease with which most people…

The flipside is that you have no job security. In Europe, we've been moving towards more American style "flexible employment" for years, and it's highly controversial. As an aging guy, I'm also staring down the barrel of cross-party consensus on replicating the predatory US healthcare model in my country. I see what things look like in the States, and no thanks. > While getting terminated is disruptive, it isn’t the…

They don't save because they don't need to since there's always a job available as hiring is so easy. In Europe we need to save in case we want to quit, since then we lose all rights and protections and need to wait months before finding a new job.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#132

Post by xmprt »

waihtis wrote: post #106
k_sze wrote: post #16

Please add [2014]. It's an interesting read, but temporal context is important. The world has been through a lot. Even if we talk only about Japan, there has been - COVID - Tokyo 2020 Olympics - 3 prime ministers leaving their posts - Shinzo Abe getting shot

> Shinzo Abe getting shot Assassinated, you mean.

Typically when a sitting leader of a country gets shot it's not by their own accord.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#133

Post by happymellon »

kirkules wrote: post #76
specproc wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can spell it out, if it helps. In a country with exorbitant healthcare costs, it means that leaving your job means that you (and often your family) don't get healthcare.

I'm thinking you misinterpreted the comment you responded to? I read it as saying that you don't necessarily have to have employment linked healthcare just because you have at-will employment. The "inexplicably" being a commentary on the wisdom/sanity/compassion of linking healthcare to employment, rather than a claim that the parent comment had made an inexplicable leap of logic

But the discussion wasn't about "generic at-will" employment. It started as "American at-will" employment.

> > I have come to the conclusion that the American “at-will” employment model is actually a good thing and benefits workers

It may seem like you can just walk away from a job but realistically most people can't.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#134

Post by goykasi »

saagarjha wrote: post #127
goykasi wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess they start around 8 or 9 in the morning.

So they’re working 12 hour days 5 days a week? That sounds like overtime to me.

Not sure why youre being a contrarian. It seems like you didnt bother to understand my post. But yah, start work at 8-9, knock off at 6 to start drinking heavily at the local izakaya, hammered by 8 or 9 and stumbling towards the snack until last train (or later if the company pays for cabs).

I see the same thing everyday.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#135

Post by pif »

infotainment wrote: post #2

> "I can't quit the job. If I say I'm going to quit, I'll be threatened that I will have to pay damages for quitting." Interestingly, this is actually possible under Japanese law/legal precedent. If an employee, for example, decides to put in notice and then half-ass their job until their departure date, a company could actually sue the employee and win. Other Japan-labor-law fun fact: if you are a contract worker, i…

> If an employee, for example, decides to put in notice and then half-ass their job until their departure date,

Suppose you are fired, and the company decides unilaterally to halve your salary during the notice period, wouldn't you get nasty about it?

> if you are a contract worker, it is literally illegal for you to quit prior to your contract expiry date

As long as it is illegal for the company to fire you as well, I don't see any problem. Why should a party of a contract be free to breach it at will while the other remains constrained?

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#136

Post by ponow »

WalterBright wrote: post #75
jayd16 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inexplicably linking employment with healthcare seems unrelated to at-will employment.

The reason is explicable - health insurance paid by the employer is tax-deductible, while insurance paid by the employee is not. Therefore, employers include it as a way to increase total compensation at a lower cost. The origin of the practice was in WW2, when Roosevelt froze wages. To attract more and better employees, the companies threw in health insurance as a way around the restrictions.

Thanks for reminding us that state intervention is the source of the problem.

Stop linking medical insurance to employment via this tax bigotry. Buy it on the open market instead, or subsidize it if you're a leftist, but don't put that burden on jobs, you'll only get fewer jobs with greater hassle. People can agree to the arrangements they prefer, and it's not for us to second guess that. If there are people who end up coming up short, then you can help them yourself, or force the whole society to chip in (again, if you're a leftist), but don't force such considerations on the fragile links among private individuals and businesses.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#137

Post by goykasi »

bouncycastle wrote: post #129
goykasi wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is my experience too. In my neighborhood, by 8pm, the streets are crawling with drunk salarymen (and women) stumbling out of izakayas on their way to a snack and/or karaoke -- 5 days per week. They clearly werent working overtime with how often I see them.

the nomikai is part of the work, where the social status is being reinforced (pouring drinks while deeply bowing to the boss, getting forced to drink, the speeches, the clapping, etc)

Im not disputing the fact that nomikai exists. Ive been to my share. I was simply agreeing with the OP that it is more likely that most Japanese people arent working insane amounts of overtime and black companies arent in the majority. I provided a personal anecdote to reinforce that.

Most people are more than likely getting off at regular hours and going home or out for dinner and drinks (whether you consider that work or not -- they arent being paid). Otherwise the bars and trains wouldnt be packed full of people at 6pm and happy hour wouldnt exist.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#138

Post by irusensei »

kochikame wrote: post #8
infotainment wrote: post #2

> "I can't quit the job. If I say I'm going to quit, I'll be threatened that I will have to pay damages for quitting." Interestingly, this is actually possible under Japanese law/legal precedent. If an employee, for example, decides to put in notice and then half-ass their job until their departure date, a company could actually sue the employee and win. Other Japan-labor-law fun fact: if you are a contract worker, i…

To balance this comment, if you are a full time employee you are super well protected and cannot be fired for any reason other than gross negligence or actively breaking the law. Managing out a poor performer in Japan is a grinding process that can easily take two years from start to finish

That explains this: https://www.theregister.com/2024/10/16/bandai_namcos_layoff_...

> "Bandai Namco reportedly tries to bore staff into quitting, skirting Japan’s labor laws"

> Canceling some game projects and shuttering existing ones has helped, but facing the need for further adjustments, Bandai Namco has reportedly turned to the unspoken Japanese tradition of layoff-by-boredom by stuffing unwanted employees into oidashi beya, or "expulsion rooms."

> Do a quick online search for oidashi beya and you'll see plenty of websites explaining the practice, or otherwise discussing how difficult it is to fire people in Japan thanks to strong labor protections. It's not a new practice, either: For those that haven't been reading the Reg for the past 11 years, we even wrote about it way back in 2013 as a wave of the practice swept through Japan and hit tech workers at companies reportedly including Panasonic, Sony and other firms.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#139

Post by [deleted] »

pif wrote: post #135
infotainment wrote: post #2

> "I can't quit the job. If I say I'm going to quit, I'll be threatened that I will have to pay damages for quitting." Interestingly, this is actually possible under Japanese law/legal precedent. If an employee, for example, decides to put in notice and then half-ass their job until their departure date, a company could actually sue the employee and win. Other Japan-labor-law fun fact: if you are a contract worker, i…

> If an employee, for example, decides to put in notice and then half-ass their job until their departure date, Suppose you are fired, and the company decides unilaterally to halve your salary during the notice period, wouldn't you get nasty about it? > if you are a contract worker, it is literally illegal for you to quit prior to your contract expiry date As long as it is illegal for the company to fire you as well,…

[deleted]

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#140

Post by shiroiushi »

ujikoluk wrote: post #67
ninetyninenine wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I Airbnbed in the place of one guy who did it. And I know one more. The rest are on social media like you said. I think if a bunch of people just go into town and do it together it will be less isolating.

I don't think building an island is the answer. It will make it even difficult to integrate into the culture. And if you don't want to integrate into the culture, why are you there in the first place?

>And if you don't want to integrate into the culture, why are you there in the first place?

A lot of immigrants leave their home countries not because they love the culture of their new country, but because they found living in their old country unbearable for some reason. Or just for economic reasons.

Not everyone actually wants to integrate into a new culture; many don't. Just look at how many people in the US don't speak English, even though that's obviously the dominant culture.

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