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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#71

Post by JohnBooty »

warner25 wrote: post #34
bluedino wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kia sells quite a few cars that start at $20k, like the Soul and Forte

The Nissan Versa currently starts around $17k, and I see a lot of those on the road. The Mitsubishi Mirage is similarly priced but I don't think I've ever seen one in the wild. I rented a Kia Soul a few years ago and thought it was perfectly fine. But with so few options, like the parent, I'm planning to keep my current car (a 2008 Prius) indefinitely, just paying for repairs as needed until parts are unavailable or…

I rented a Versa about 5-6 years ago and I was surprised how completely "fine" it was.

It was a totally functional vehicle. The radio sounded good enough. The seats were comfy enough. It was a bit of a slug, but it had enough power so that you weren't scared for your life when merging onto a highway.

If those sound like low standards... well, this was not always the case for bargain basement cars...

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#72

Post by wenc »

jader201 wrote: post #46
jaco6 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An advantage of a pure EV over a hybrid is that you don’t have the maintenance liability of the combustion engine, cooling system, and transmission.

And brakes. My brake pads rarely touch my rotors. Not only does this (and the things you pointed out) reduce the cost of maintenance, it saves on trips to get them done, and the headaches of the pressure most put on you to get things done you don’t need, just so they can make even more money off of you. Also, EVs on the highway (when hybrids are using the ICE) are much quieter, and have more torque. The only downside…

Is that right?

With torque blending, regen braking is blended with friction braking at low speeds (when regen braking is ineffective). Friction braking is always needed to make a full stop.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#73

Post by bruckie »

smitelli wrote: post #52
p1necone wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine the most price sensitive buyers wouldn't be looking at the new market at all - there might not be enough demand for "cheap, but still nowhere near as cheap as a second hand car" to make the price point worth targeting as a manufacturer.

They used to, that’s the thing. It used to be possible to get barebones A-to-B transportation with zero frills. Power windows/locks, air conditioning, ABS, power steering, automatic transmission—all manner of things that aren’t strictly required to get a person to/from where they need to go—could be optioned away if the buyer was very price sensitive. In 1998 a Chevrolet Metro could be optioned without a radio or rea…

You can get a low miles used Chevy Bolt for that much, and it's significantly nicer than most 90's Civics (has AC, Android Auto and CarPlay, cruise control, satellite radio, power doors and locks, keyless remote, etc.).

Not new, but does that matter so much?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#74

Post by 9x39 »

015a wrote: post #54
9x39 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right about pendulums here, but we might be about to see a US auto maker vs China auto maker inflection point like I read about in the 1980s with US vs Japan. I watching this video which lays out some fundamental diffs between US companies, like GM and Chinese companies, like BYD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXvcwM977D0 * Short term vs long term focus * .gov subsidies stronger in key markets in CN…

There's only one reason why US cars are more expensive than CN cars: People will pay it. All that other stuff is window dressing. The US is way, way better at financial engineering than China; we can sell an $80,000 Tahoe to a single mom between jobs on zero down and 10% APR, somehow she'll take that deal, and somehow the system doesn't explode into a fiery deathball; so you get $80,000 Tahoes. That's it. Short-term…

> Short-term vs long-term focus means nothing.

Manufacturing, generally? Solar? Batteries? Semiconductors? Cyber espionage/warfare? I think those are more than nothing that China has had a demonstrable long term strategy in which benefits them at our expense.

Also, great point about financialization in the US. Do you think if that dam breaks, US auto makers come back to planet Earth instead of chasing what seems to be exclusively high-margin cars only affordable by credit?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#75

Post by MrHamburger »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #44
rootusrootus wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the EV car market is lacking demand There is scant evidence for this. Every time prices improve, sales surge. Sounds like the demand is there, but price matters. As it always has.

Because demand isn't the issue. The issue is a new car that isn't a budget brand is increasingly a luxury option in the United States, because, and say it with me... Wages have been stagnant in the United States for nearly 50 years. Every economic stat right now points to this as the core issue. Consumers are squeezed more on every last good and service, tons of services are now only available via subscriptions which…

So if people would have money, there would be a demand. His point still stands.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#76

Post by bartvk »

rootusrootus wrote: post #62
OptionOfT wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need laws that ban these junk fees. Any advertised price should be one I can get when I walk in. I cannot get the car without registration. I cannot get the car without 'destination' fee. Bake it into the price.

Registration cost is too variable. Varies by state, and even by city.

You'd say someone would build an API to retrieve that information by city. But I would not be surprised that the product seller can't be bothered inserting that information into their sales flow.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#77

Post by millerm »

voisin wrote: post #67
lmm wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC the US has some ass-backwards fuel economy laws that mean it's essentially illegal to produce small cars. Also there's enough demand for high-margin cars to max out available production capacity, and would you want to be making major investments in ICE car production right now?

I don’t think companies are penalized for producing small cars so much as larger vehicles like trucks and SUVs are incentivized to become larger to sit outside the rules as commercial vehicles even though everyone knows that only a small percentage are used for commercial purposes.

Exactly. The large gas guzzling, glorified grocery getters are just an easy out for manufacturers to subvert the requirements made for smaller vehicles (which was completely short-sited, or it was planned by lobbyists). It was simply easier for these companies to continue doing what they were doing with what they had. Give a company and alternative that costs them nothing, then they will do nothing. We need a new fuel standard. A truck or SUV purchased after then you pay an extra $ per gallon. Yeah, I know the implementation is a problem, but I am simply throwing out an idea. Perhaps they yearly registration is now an extra $2000/year. They already screw EV owners in many states. I pay an extra $220 a year for my car, and that is ridiculous. I have owned my car for 5 1/2 years, and I have 24k miles on it. This tax is completely unfair and has no basis in reality for "road tax".

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#78

Post by KptMarchewa »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #7
rootusrootus wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the EV car market is lacking demand There is scant evidence for this. Every time prices improve, sales surge. Sounds like the demand is there, but price matters. As it always has.

Yep. Midrange-to-expensive EVs have been around for long enough that pretty much everybody in those market segments who are currently interested have already bought one. Additionally, the segment has been flooded with midsize SUVs, with the odd midsize sedan — variety is sorely lacking. Between these two, quite a considerable market is being left unaddressed. The first to fill these niches with affordable models that…

>with the odd midsize sedan — variety is sorely lacking

Sedans are nothing. Just barely, finally, after all those years, we have electric kombis - VW ID.7 Tourer and Audi A6 Avant e-tron.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#79

Post by burnt-resistor »

yapyap wrote: post #20

I doubt a cheap american electric car is the real withering dream with people not being able to put a roof over their head

The American dream would have both.

Unfortunately, while BYD would be the most readily-available option for cheap cars, it would need: homologation, distributors, parts suppliers, repeal of the protectionist tariffs protecting Tesla, and the removal of Musk from an unfair position of power, influence, and regulatory capture, and whatever the heck DOGE will be.

The larger issue is that, in order to afford housing, a car, and a life, regular American workers need to be paid livable wages to keep up with the inflation "pay cut" and reverse decades of sliding standards of living through lower and suppressed real wages.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#80

Post by josefresco »

lmm wrote: post #38
AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If even ICE cars are now super expensive, why isn’t this a screaming opportunity for some auto manufacturer to target the low end of the market? I’ve never spent more than 20k for a car. With prices like this, I’m just going to keep my old one as long as I can.

IIRC the US has some ass-backwards fuel economy laws that mean it's essentially illegal to produce small cars. Also there's enough demand for high-margin cars to max out available production capacity, and would you want to be making major investments in ICE car production right now?

I drive a 2023 Kida Rio 5 which is small, simple and fuel efficient (combined 40 MPG). Kia is killing it though, because not enough Americans bought them. They (Americans) instead buy the larger Forte. I specifically told them I wanted the Rio 5, and after a few calls they found one (1!) and proceeded to mark it up $2k - still worth it.
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