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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#61

Post by rootusrootus »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #15
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I don’t understand the advantage of EVs really. Isn’t a plug in hybrid the best option? You can do everyday short trips on battery but also have the gas engine for longer trips. Sure it is more complicated but Toyota has shown that you can make this super reliable.

You're never going to a hybrid under $25,000. Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. I've done over 20,000 km in road trips in an EV. You charge while you're eating or toileting or sleeping, it doesn't affect my trips.

I agree, the range has rarely been a problem for me. The battery runs out of juice about the time my butt needs a break, my bladder needs emptying, and my stomach needs filling. By the time I'm done with lunch, I'm good for another 250-300 miles, and I'm going to stop for the night at that point anyway. People doing >500 miles per day on a roadtrip are the outliers. Way, way outliers.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#62

Post by rootusrootus »

OptionOfT wrote: post #41
wlesieutre wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a few $20k ish , though only the Forte actually making it under that. Forte LX starting at $19,900. Of course that's without without the $1,155 "destination" fee, so even the Forte really starts at $21,145. But considering inflation, $21k isn't a bad price.

We need laws that ban these junk fees. Any advertised price should be one I can get when I walk in. I cannot get the car without registration. I cannot get the car without 'destination' fee. Bake it into the price.

Registration cost is too variable. Varies by state, and even by city.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#63

Post by rootusrootus »

smitelli wrote: post #52
p1necone wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine the most price sensitive buyers wouldn't be looking at the new market at all - there might not be enough demand for "cheap, but still nowhere near as cheap as a second hand car" to make the price point worth targeting as a manufacturer.

They used to, that’s the thing. It used to be possible to get barebones A-to-B transportation with zero frills. Power windows/locks, air conditioning, ABS, power steering, automatic transmission—all manner of things that aren’t strictly required to get a person to/from where they need to go—could be optioned away if the buyer was very price sensitive. In 1998 a Chevrolet Metro could be optioned without a radio or rea…

> I suspect a whole segment of people would be willing to consider a no-frills EV at a comparable price point.

GM made that play with the Bolt. It was routinely available for just over $20K. Still sat on lots, not getting a lot of love. People shopping for new cars want nicer toys, people who cannot afford new shop used and enjoy getting those nice toys at a discount. I bet the subset of buyers looking for a bare bones no frills brand-new car is quite small.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#64

Post by rootusrootus »

navane wrote: post #10
bartvk wrote: post #2

https://archive.ph/9oIT4 I wish it would have adjusted for inflation. One quote: "The average transaction price for a new vehicle sold in the U.S. last month was $48,623, according to Kelley Blue Book, roughly $10,000 higher than in 2019, before the pandemic." However, about 9200 euros of that is due to inflation according to this calculator: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That's a nitpick though. All in all,…

Is the car 10k more expensive because of inflation or is the inflation so high because the car costs 10k more?

Is it actually $10K more expensive? The F150 Lightning I just bought was cheaper than the hybrid version I was looking at buying. The Tesla Model 3 & Y seem to be priced pretty competitively, as well.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#65

Post by rootusrootus »

jmward01 wrote: post #11
bartvk wrote: post #2

https://archive.ph/9oIT4 I wish it would have adjusted for inflation. One quote: "The average transaction price for a new vehicle sold in the U.S. last month was $48,623, according to Kelley Blue Book, roughly $10,000 higher than in 2019, before the pandemic." However, about 9200 euros of that is due to inflation according to this calculator: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That's a nitpick though. All in all,…

Privacy is in my top two concerns for EVs (and any vehicle purchase I make). I am increasingly avoiding every privacy destroying option out there, be it cars or services in general. It is, unfortunately, becoming nearly impossible to be privacy aware but the more resistance people put up the better chance we have of maintaining some privacy.

I don't think EVs are any worse than any other car. My F150 Lightning has precisely as much telemetry as the ICE version. Which is to say, more than I'd like. But I realize most buyers don't care.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#66

Post by warner25 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #63
smitelli wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They used to, that’s the thing. It used to be possible to get barebones A-to-B transportation with zero frills. Power windows/locks, air conditioning, ABS, power steering, automatic transmission—all manner of things that aren’t strictly required to get a person to/from where they need to go—could be optioned away if the buyer was very price sensitive. In 1998 a Chevrolet Metro could be optioned without a radio or rea…

> I suspect a whole segment of people would be willing to consider a no-frills EV at a comparable price point. GM made that play with the Bolt. It was routinely available for just over $20K. Still sat on lots, not getting a lot of love. People shopping for new cars want nicer toys, people who cannot afford new shop used and enjoy getting those nice toys at a discount. I bet the subset of buyers looking for a bare bon…

> I bet the subset of buyers looking for a bare bones no frills brand-new car is quite small.

I think you're correct; we're probably talking about a portion of the weirdly minimalist and frugal crowd pursuing FIRE. Also, most folks in that small subset wouldn't even consider buying a GM product; it's going to be either a Toyota or Honda for them.

Source: I'm one of them, still driving my base-level trim 2008 Prius.

As an aside, I'm reading that the new Bolt sold nearly as well as the Tesla Model S in 2017. Before that, I think the similarly basic Nissan Leaf was the best selling EV. Since then, however, my sense is that EV purchases became more about "fun" (which Tesla has emphasized and provided) than anything else.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#67

Post by voisin »

lmm wrote: post #38
AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If even ICE cars are now super expensive, why isn’t this a screaming opportunity for some auto manufacturer to target the low end of the market? I’ve never spent more than 20k for a car. With prices like this, I’m just going to keep my old one as long as I can.

IIRC the US has some ass-backwards fuel economy laws that mean it's essentially illegal to produce small cars. Also there's enough demand for high-margin cars to max out available production capacity, and would you want to be making major investments in ICE car production right now?

I don’t think companies are penalized for producing small cars so much as larger vehicles like trucks and SUVs are incentivized to become larger to sit outside the rules as commercial vehicles even though everyone knows that only a small percentage are used for commercial purposes.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#68

Post by warner25 »

jader201 wrote: post #46
jaco6 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An advantage of a pure EV over a hybrid is that you don’t have the maintenance liability of the combustion engine, cooling system, and transmission.

And brakes. My brake pads rarely touch my rotors. Not only does this (and the things you pointed out) reduce the cost of maintenance, it saves on trips to get them done, and the headaches of the pressure most put on you to get things done you don’t need, just so they can make even more money off of you. Also, EVs on the highway (when hybrids are using the ICE) are much quieter, and have more torque. The only downside…

> And brakes. My brake pads rarely touch my rotors.

I still have the original brake pads on my 2008 Prius with 150k miles. (And yes, I have them measured periodically to see if they're still good.) This is typical.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#69

Post by onecommentman »

jaco6 wrote: post #18
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I don’t understand the advantage of EVs really. Isn’t a plug in hybrid the best option? You can do everyday short trips on battery but also have the gas engine for longer trips. Sure it is more complicated but Toyota has shown that you can make this super reliable.

An advantage of a pure EV over a hybrid is that you don’t have the maintenance liability of the combustion engine, cooling system, and transmission.

25 year old sedan with a Northstar engine, a couple belt and chain replacements, no significant transmission issues, no significant engine work. Regular dealer maintenance No major battery pack replacements. May not be the greenest, but I know I’m in the green. Plug-in hybrids do sound cool…

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#70

Post by voisin »

rootusrootus wrote: post #63
smitelli wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They used to, that’s the thing. It used to be possible to get barebones A-to-B transportation with zero frills. Power windows/locks, air conditioning, ABS, power steering, automatic transmission—all manner of things that aren’t strictly required to get a person to/from where they need to go—could be optioned away if the buyer was very price sensitive. In 1998 a Chevrolet Metro could be optioned without a radio or rea…

> I suspect a whole segment of people would be willing to consider a no-frills EV at a comparable price point. GM made that play with the Bolt. It was routinely available for just over $20K. Still sat on lots, not getting a lot of love. People shopping for new cars want nicer toys, people who cannot afford new shop used and enjoy getting those nice toys at a discount. I bet the subset of buyers looking for a bare bon…

> People shopping for new cars want nicer toys

It is worth recognizing the role that ZIRP played in all of this. Artificially low interest rates allowed payments on more expensive premium vehicles to be much more manageable for a much larger portion of the population.

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