A Dust Over India • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dust Over India

#201

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 1:19 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #132

pdeuchler wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yes India's government is corrupt, but not all that much more corrupt than the US government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/18/world/asia/18iht-letter18.... http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2091100,00.htm... People are holding hunger strikes to stand up against the corruption. When was the last time that happened in the US? You are rationalizing away al…

Western countries have merely professionalised corruption. Give a politician 10 lakh rupees in a brown envelope and it's a symptom of corruption, but donate $100,000 to his campaign funds and it's the sign of a healthy democracy. Here in the UK, we are investigating massive corruption in the banking sector, the press and government. Every day we are seeing new revelations from the Leveson Inquiry on press ethics, or…

Strictly: campaign donations are a legal transaction, though previously in the US the limits were set far lower. I'd strongly recommend you read Lawrence Lessig's Future of Ideas and Republic Lost in which he first develops and then greatly expands the nature and scope of corrupting influences of money in the US, particularly in politics.

A difference of degree remains a difference, if only of degree. That said, independent third-party assessments of corruption such as the Corruption Perceptions Index as of 2010 hold the US (7.1) rather better than India (3.1) (the index uses a 10 point scale). There's room for improvement for both nations. Notably, the US is comperable with two South American countries, actually falling behind Chile (7.2) and just ahead of Urugay (6.9).

Topping the list, New Zealand and Denmark (tied at 9.3), and Finland and Sweden (tied at 9.2). Worst? Somalia (1.1), Myanmar and Afghanistan (1.4), and Iraq (1.5) (So, how's that regime-y change-y thing going for ya, Sarah?)

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2010/results

Re: A Dust Over India

#202

Post by tejaswiy » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 1:20 AM UTC

alberich wrote: post #66

photon137 wrote: post #14

The mistake the author made is that he lived in India for three weeks. Had he stayed for six months or a year, he'd have been able to figure out what makes India tick - India is the very embodiment of clever innovation to survive - it will ask you very tough questions and it will compel you to innovate, often rapidly, just in order to survive - not even succeed. This, in India, is known as "jugaad". He missed the "ju…

I'd argue that this "jugaad" happens everywhere when people are under extreme pressure and have no good expectations of getting anywhere following the rules. Here in Brazil there are lots of young people that gets into drug dealing just because they don't have nothing better to do. The grow up in extreme poverty and society would very much like them to be dead or in prision, so they take their chances... sometimes it…

I would say you're off slightly. I think it's basically improvising very frugally to make stuff work when it should've been close to impossible. It can be dangerous, It can hurt others, selfish or just plain useful, but there's no way you can deny the ingenuity.

Here're some awesome examples of jugaad:

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/559248_35987216408...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3231/2389399780_7e7c15f2d7.jp...

http://www.myindiapictures.com/pictures/up1/2012/06/funny-ca...

http://www.myindiapictures.com/pictures/up1/2012/06/funny-ro...

My personal favorite: (Steaming milk on the roadside with a pressure cooker)

http://sagarmukim.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/jugaad.jpg

There's tons more examples like this, but you get the point.

Re: A Dust Over India

#203

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 1:21 AM UTC

aggronn wrote: post #140

srean wrote: post #100

It is hard to give a well rounded response to the post and yet keep it short. So I will not even try. A lot has been written about India, so people who want to know more will dig deep on their own, whereas many will be happy with poverty porn . One thing that I do want to mention is that India is a very high variance country. For almost any statement one makes, there will be a un-ignorable part of the country where t…

In what way is regulatory capture corruption? What is the alternative? I'm reluctant to consider it corruption in the same sentence as bribery, despite that it is an inherent conflict of interest.

Regulatory agencies are supposed to, by charter, look to the public interest in overseeing companies.

If they are captured by the companies they regulate, and serve the companies' interests rather than the public's, by definition their mission has been corrupted.

Your question is highly disingenuous.

Re: A Dust Over India

#204

Post by coastside_geek » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 1:22 AM UTC

memset wrote: post #21

JonnieCache wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The salesman in a high-end TV shop taking the bus to work. This one kinda sticks out of the list. That would happen in many metropolitan centers worldwide, its simply more convenient.

This is basically what it is like commuting by bus in India: http://www.preetindersodhi.com/pictures/the-indian-bus/ Imagine being crammed in during a 100-degree+ summer just to get to and from work every day. Oof. I live in NYC; we have a very tame definition of "taking the bus" as compared to India.

When I was growing up in Chennai I would lean out the bus doors (with one hand) primarily to impress the young hotties walking along the side of the road.

Re: A Dust Over India

#205

Post by PakG1 » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 1:34 AM UTC

ttrt wrote: post #107

PakG1 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agreed with most of your post except for this point: Doesn't mean it's alright for people to live in a shelter of NEWSPAPER. Why isn't it alright? Honestly, if it's adequate shelter, why isn't it alright? I'm trying to think of some reasons, and I figure it has to do with inability to withstand rain and wind, effects of rot and mold, lack of security, or who knows what. But then I keep going back to the word "adequ…

You're assuming too much. It's not adequate shelter. You'd get sick living in a shack in an indian slum or in a hut in the amazon without modern medicine plus expensive and time consuming precautions--precautions a slum dweller can't take. Read up on public health in slums, particularly slums in the tropics. "many missionaries throughout history easily decided to go native" Err, no. Missionaries (as well as soldiers…

I'm not assuming anything. I'm questioning what is the definition of adequate here, because whatever is the definition will determine whether or not I agree with the original statement.

Whether or not those housing conditions lend themselves to proper sanitation or not, missionaries decided to go native in spite of the high mortality, also knowing the mortality rate of their peers (until modern medicine came about to make things like malaria a much smaller concern). I don't see your point. Missionaries had a crazy high mortality in the tropics? So what? It didn't stop their decisions to go native. And they certainly didn't have a crazy high mortality rate after the arrival of modern medicine. What are you saying no to?

Re: A Dust Over India

#206

Post by akandiah » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 1:34 AM UTC

The problem that India faces are summed up quite nicely in towards the end:

Obviously, I’m no Mother Teresa. And it’s just as well, Mother Teresa couldn’t save this society from itself. Sometimes human systems become so large that they hurt people, not by design, but by inertia. And it’s beyond any of our ability to grasp, let alone control.

Re: A Dust Over India

#207

Post by crag » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 1:42 AM UTC

jagira wrote: post #84

crag wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I, as an Indian, will be utterly shocked if I visit a ghetto in downtown Detroit." Compared to what the OP described, a "ghetto" in old Detroit would be a paradise. Also, just to point out, don't talk trash about a town unless you've been there. Detroit is finally bringing itself out of the pit. Lots of new energy running around. It's on the rise. Maybe you should visit?

Don't be defensive. I am not picking any particular place. What I am trying to say is there are places everywhere which violate the perception of a particular nation. The OP had some wrong perceptions about places like Agra or Gaya. And, I am not talking trash. My sister lives in Troy. When she was new to Detroit, she chose a wrong route while driving to downtown Detroit. While passing through a certain area ( don't…

"Also, just to point out, don't base your comparisons on a blog post."

As opposed to what you are basing you opinions on; "My sister lives in Troy. When she was new to Detroit, she choose a wrong route while driving to downtown Detroit. While passing through a certain area (don't remember the name, will call her and ask) some gangsters tried to stop her car and rob her. Luckily she escaped."

Down vote me all you've want... but unless you actually been to Detroit, recently, you are taking out of your ass.

From PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/the-daily-need/is-detro...

I'll quote a part so you don't have to browse it: "Last weekend, the New York Times featured a story in its Style section about the onslaught of hip, young urban pioneers streaming into downtown Detroit. These “creatives,” as they are being called, are taking advantage of low rents and the opportunity to recycle this abandoned, blank slate of an urban landscape into something new and exciting. There are restaurateurs and entrepreneurs of all stripes living alongside environmentalists and urban farmers. ..."

If you want I can post many other links.. but i assume you can do your own google'ing.

Edited: typos.

Re: A Dust Over India

#208

Post by coastside_geek » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 1:43 AM UTC

JonnieCache wrote: post #4

supersan wrote: post #3

I don't know how much truth there is in this from the foreigner's point of view, but a lot of us believe (me and a lot of my friends included) that a vast majority of tourists who come to India want to witness this very same upon coming here. It also fits one of the many reasons why the density of foreigners is maximum in areas like Pahar Ganj and Old delhi (the dirtiest parts of Delhi IMO). So when some "gora" (typi…

I think it is valid to judge a society on how it treats its least fortunate. You are certainly unlikely to learn much about a country from its suburbs and its CBDs, they are (relatively speaking) alike the world over in my experience.

Well, then why complain about it? When tourists come to US they may go to Disneyland, the Statue of Liberty etc. Most tourists don't take pictures of American ghettos, prisons etc.

Why is it that when you guys go to other countries you constantly focus on why that country is somehow different in a bad way? India: too filthy and chaotic. China: no freedom. Middle East: too oppressive. I could go on.

I've noticed that Europeans have a more nuanced approach to the world compared to Americans. They seem to appreciate differences instead of being smug in their superiority.

Re: A Dust Over India

#209

Post by coastside_geek » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 1:49 AM UTC

Interesting responses.

I urge fellow Indians to check out theuglyindian.com. A bunch of guys (some are friends of friends) have got together to make an impact. These little grass roots efforts are working.

Lets participate and clean things up.

Re: A Dust Over India

#210

Post by vacri » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 1:55 AM UTC

microarchitect wrote: post #145

pdeuchler wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yes India's government is corrupt, but not all that much more corrupt than the US government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/18/world/asia/18iht-letter18.... http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2091100,00.htm... People are holding hunger strikes to stand up against the corruption. When was the last time that happened in the US? You are rationalizing away al…

how does that justify having the poor out in the open begging for a living? What would you do? You can't magically produce houses, schools, hospitals and other basic infrastructure to service several hundred million people. Forget that, I doubt you could engineer an efficient distribution system that just provides these people with nutritious food. Keep in mind these people are distributed across a fairly large count…

Efficient food distribution is an interesting topic with respect to India - Mumbai has an industry based around moving food from affluent workers' homes to their place of lunch and back again, moving 200k meals a day. Even more interesting is that the workforce is largely illiterate, yet the failure rate for delivery and return is amazingly low.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dabbawala