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The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

vincentschmalbach.com

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Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#91
post #89
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can have the shares for €4m or the assets for €5m". Both sides have agency in a negotiation. AIUI the .de rules are intended for a somewhat different situation, perhaps more common. The article describes a situation where almost all of the exit is profit. I'm happy for you if you're in that situation, but I'd guess that most people have costs. In that case .de lets you set costs from past years against the exit,…

That's not how negotiations work. There is a price that the buyer is willing to pay. He is not going to pay your taxes.

In my experience, if you make someone two offers, they'll generally stop to consider which one is best for them.

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#92

The Germans aren't wrong to see it as income from work though, because software is an example of crystallised work. This is why it has had unfavourable treatment in Europe. If you allow people to build software and sell it for capital gains rates, then if you're consistent you allow people to build anything and sell them for capital gains rates, which means that the 'real' tax on labour if you structure your work as…

The software aspect is quite irrelevant, and I believe that what is described is simply how GmbH companies work. If you own a company and sells it, what you are doing is selling your shares in the company. In many jurisdictions this is capital gain (or loss) for accounting and tax purposes since you are selling an asset. Ultimately I suppose the issue is the tax rate, not the "implementation details".

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#93

Is there actually any sane country to do SaaS business except the US? It's insane how easy it's to start an LLC in US, set up a bank account, do your taxes, without ever leaving your home. Hell, you can start it as a foreigner, opt for pass-through taxation, and pay taxes at your tax residence. I mean, I get higher taxes, I just don't understand why you want to make it so hard to start and operate a company.

> It's insane how easy it's to start an LLC in US, set up a bank account, do your taxes, without ever leaving your home

All of this is very simple, cheap, and quick in the UK, too.

Fully agree that it is difficult to understand why so many countries make it so complex and costly to set up and run a company...

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the goal is not to have people create startups, there you have it. That only makes sense if you think the only reason anyone ever founds a business is to sell it to someone else...

People found businesses with the idea of making money. At certain points in the growth of the business, you expect you'll weigh whether it's more interesting to continue your work there or whether you should sell it and start from scratch another business. The question is why a government or a society would wish to suppress people who actively start businesses... not to throw shade on anyone who starts a business bec…

Taxing the sale as normal income doesn't prevent you from selling it, it simply closes a loophole that would make selling it more enticing than continuing to run it yourself.

If anything, it means that startups are more likely to stick around and turn into real businesses rather than being bought by salesforce and disappearing into corporate oblivion

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#96
As someone who has run a small business in an EU country for 10 years and is in a process of relocating to a low tax jurisdiction I wonder what EU's endgame on this one is.

It's not like EU countries offer a potential founders anything of substance. You can just as well run your company from abroad. Most of your customers are going to be outside of EU (most likely), you will be buying services from outside of EU, hire/work with people from various countries. There is just no reason to be in Germany, France, Spain, Italy when you don't get anything but bureaucracy burden and high taxes.

I paid my (admittedly quite low by EU standards) taxes honestly but right now savings on capital gain tax alone are enough for me to buy a beach house in a country with a better weather and still save some. My country wants to charge >1% of my wealth every year just to be there not even going into business taxes. The incentives are right there to leave. If I ever start another business it will be in my new tax friendly country. A lot of people are like me and will realize what terrible deal they are getting. Out of those who stay a smaller number is going to be successful because of all the tax/bureaucracy burden. Is the endgame to just give up on IT? Introduce tariffs on everything? Forbid foreign corporations to sell in EU?

I just don't see how EU isn't going to be left in the dust in technology sector with their current policies.

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#97
post #6

[flagged]

Why would a person who founded a startup, and put countless unpaid hours into building it, then have to pay for the sale as if it were employee income? What would be the incentive for them to have done anything more than be someone else's employee? Taxes are incentivizing or disincentivizing, so policy should mirror what you want out of your economy. If the goal is not to have people create startups, there you have i…

imo quite dubious to see the state only as "facilitator/suppressor" of economic activity and not also as a share/rent seeking entity itself. state capitalism is resurgent within a constellation of rampant international economic competition (especially in tech). taxing / fining US domination in tech is a working business model.

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#98

I have shares in a bootstrapped Gmbh via a holding company. Germany is a complex place to do business for non native speakers and it is generally financially risky to do business here. But if you structure it right, the flip side is that Germany has a lot of family owned smaller and larger businesses. The economy kind of runs on companies like that. So, it is definitely possible to be an entrepreneur in this country.…

Interesting post. >> The whole point of limited liability companies in other countries is to de-risk the process of creating new businesses for individuals so that people might do innovative things that benefit the economy. Germany does the opposite. It actively discourages people from doing that. And a Gmbh actually exposes you to a lot of liability. Can you elucidate what you think the philosophy or psychology is t…

It is definitely a weird cultural thing. I can speculate a bit.

It might have some roots in social well fare. But I've also lived in Sweden and Finland which have a very different attitude towards building tech companies. Especially Finland is quite successful at doing startups and scaleups. Especially considering its small population. And of course both countries have a strong social well fare culture. And Germany is actually fairly conservative on the spectrum. E.g. minimum wage did not even exist here until fairly recently. State pensions aren't that great, etc. I'm from the Netherlands originally, our social security is a lot better and more efficient. And so is our economy, infrastructure, healthcare system and all the other things that are clearly very broken and neglected in Germany. It's very visible when you cross the border. The state of the roads is very different on both sides of the border. That's true for most countries that border Germany.

Germans just seem very reluctant to change anything. There's a lot of hesitation doing anything. That's also why their infrastructure is such a mess. Big investments are risky. So they prefer not to. Their default attitude to almost anything is "no". Modernizing anything is frowned upon. So they still bank like it's the nineteen eighties, which is stupidly annoying. They stubbornly stick with a lot of paper based processes. And they employ a lot of pencil pushers, accountants, lawyers, etc. that actually rely economically on things not changing.

And of course they refuse to modernize rules that flat out barely make any sense. It's always been this way, it can't be that bad, etc. They are very proud of keeping their national debt low. But that also means they've been neglecting their infrastructure for decades. Which is now affecting them economically.

The way out would be massive investments. But that requires changes they are not comfortable making. So they are just dilly dallying and going around in circles.

With startup culture, their own rules are stopping foreigners from investing in their german companies. Too hard. too risky, etc. That's irrational. They should be welcoming that cash. Not putting up lots of obstacles. That money would go directly into their economy. But instead it's going elsewhere. Lots of German companies with their headquarters in Amsterdam, Dublin, London, etc.

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#99

The Germans aren't wrong to see it as income from work though, because software is an example of crystallised work. This is why it has had unfavourable treatment in Europe. If you allow people to build software and sell it for capital gains rates, then if you're consistent you allow people to build anything and sell them for capital gains rates, which means that the 'real' tax on labour if you structure your work as…

The software aspect is quite irrelevant, and I believe that what is described is simply how GmbH companies work. If you own a company and sells it, what you are doing is selling your shares in the company. In many jurisdictions this is capital gain (or loss) for accounting and tax purposes since you are selling an asset. Ultimately I suppose the issue is the tax rate, not the "implementation details".

But often there's a special rule when you work in the company in question, in which case you have to pay income tax on a certain fraction of dividends, with something similar for the sale of the company.

Re: The Hidden Tax Trap for SaaS Founders in Germany

#100
post #83

The Germans aren't wrong to see it as income from work though, because software is an example of crystallised work. This is why it has had unfavourable treatment in Europe. If you allow people to build software and sell it for capital gains rates, then if you're consistent you allow people to build anything and sell them for capital gains rates, which means that the 'real' tax on labour if you structure your work as…

> software is an example of crystallised work. Yes, but if the software was written by salaried employees then this work has already been taxed. Say if you buy stocks, then sell them at higher price, one could argue that it's someone's work that made them cost more.

Yes, which is why this only matters when the person in questions works in the company.

In the Swedish system there's a rule whereby you accumulate something based on wages paid, and where you can thus avoid part of the sale counting towards income, provided that you've paid people so much in salaries that your work can be seen as a small part.

What I'm sort of arguing for though, is to tax work less, so as to encourage it.

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